Behir problem from MM2

[jester_gl]

Anyone tried to use a behir from MM2. I think he might be a compulsive chewer.

Devour (standard; recharges when no creature is affected by this
power)
Reach 3; +19 vs. Reflex; 2d8 + 6 damage, and a Medium or
smaller target is swallowed. A swallowed target is grabbed
and restrained. (blablabla) Sustain Minor: The behir sustains the grab, and the target takes 15 damage.​

Lightning Reflexes
The behir acts three times in a round, on initiative counts 30,
20, and 10. It cannot delay or ready actions. On each turn, it has
a standard action instead of the normal allotment of actions. It​

can use one immediate action between each pair of turns.

Sustain minor when you only have a standard action might be hard. So how would you rule it? His first action every turn is the sustain? Or does he chew on the grabbed target and does nothing else?

 

[keterys]

I suspect it'd actually be more interesting if it could only sustain a round later, rather than each turn... but yes, if it wants to sustain it can do so three times per round, and doing so eats up all of the Behir's actions.

 

[sfedi]

As keterys said.

Although this would eat all of his actions, it's DPR would be at it maximum.

A swallowed character could receive upto 45 damage per round.

 

[Larrin]

We fought a Behir (reskinned and leveled down a little) as the BBEG of the campaign we just finished. The first time led the DM misread and sustained the grab (15 dmg) and took an action each turn. WAY too powerful. Along with its aura of dmg and the fact we were confined to a 8x8 room our party lost three members, a fourth was unconscious and my warden wasn't really able to do much to stop him, despite probably going to last anouther 8 rounds against him...

2nd time, DM ruled if you don't sustain the grab, he had to spit you out on that turn, and the the minor action took up the whole turn. His main tactic was to swallow and just chew for the 45 damage a round. His main mistake was swallowing my warden, whom after damage reduction from armor and regen from stone guardian form was quite happy sitting inside the beast taking only 25 damage total out of all three turns and taking pot shots from inside it, while the party took him to task with no reprecussions. After the third time I went bloodied->not bloodied, he spat me out, since i still had two more healing powers to use, and went after the cleric. That was more brutal, and we almost lost her before the invokers sword of vengance killed him on an imediate interupt.

I would say the 2nd time my DM had it right: You can sustain each turn for the 15dmg, but thats all you do that turn. I'm not sure if not sustaining means you spit them out if you've already sustained that round, but thats a judgement call. Frankly it was a nasty beast, if he hadn't wasted his time digesting me, our group may have lost another 3 PC's.

Certainly don't make the mistake of letting him sustain and take a standard action on one turn.....thats death to the party.

 

[keterys]

That said, I think removing the sustain line and adding 'The target takes 15 damage at the end of each of its turns, if it has not escaped.' would be reasonable and more enjoyable.

 

[Skallgrim]

That said, I think removing the sustain line and adding 'The target takes 15 damage at the end of each of its turns, if it has not escaped.' would be reasonable and more enjoyable.

I don't know. I think the mental image I get of the Behir struggling to keep down a wriggling Warden is worth the use of the Standard Actions.

Requiring the sustain means that a Behir can't just run away while pummelling you with its gizzard. It only gets to nom on you if it stands there with your upper half in its mouth. If it wants to run away, you have to be dead in its belly or free to go. I see each of the sustains as the behir forcing a little more of you down its throat, but it can't quite manage to swallow you whole until you stop kicking.

I do have to admit that, on the other hand, the image of a behir galloping away with a mostly swallowed gnome while the party pursues is funny, especially if you cue up "Yakkity Sax".

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, this has been discussed a bit before. Nobody is sure if the Behir has to sustain on every one of its turns or not. I think technically by RAW it does, but there are some slight contradictions there. Even if it does have to sustain with every action the 15 damage a turn is well worth it for the DM! lol. Nasty critter.

 

[Nikosandros]

I think that this specific problem is just one instance of a more general issue. It seems to me that the rules are lacking with regards with creatures that act multiple times in a single round.

Besides maintaining powers, others doubts that I have are:

1) What happens to such a creature when it is dazed?

2) How many times can it act in a surprise round?

3) How often does it sustain continuing damage?

4) How often can it make saving throws?

 

[sfedi]

I think that this specific problem is just one instance of a more general issue. It seems to me that the rules are lacking with regards with creatures that act multiple times in a single round.

Precisely.

But, in fact, there IS a guideline.
Which can be deduced from the desing of Elites and Solos.
They should replace two or five monsters respectively.

So you when you have to decide how to handle them, you must keep in mind that you must keep the monster challenging as two or five monsters.

So, it's damage output, hit points, etc can be somewhat easily determined.

The problem comes with the action economy.

Because some monsters have single attacks that have a damage potential equivalent to two standard monster attacks. Yet some compensate with Immediate actions, or multiple attacks.

1) What happens to such a creature when it is dazed?

This should cancel 1 standard monster worth of attacks. Aproximately.
So it really depends on each monster and how it works. Because each monster decides how to have multiple standard monster worth of attacks differently.

For example, in the case of Elites that have two attacks as a Standard action, I wouldn't rule any differently. If correctly used, the Daze could cancel both attacks, it not, it can't cancel anything.
Yet, with this ruling, the Dazed condition for this particular monster is a little more effective.

2) How many times can it act in a surprise round?

Good point here.
But I think this is an issue for skirmishers and lurkers mostly.

In the case of elite monsters with ranged attacks that are equivalent of two standard monster attacks, this seems not to be much of a problem.

In the case of an Elite that has Threatening Reach (which is normally used as an "this monster has an extra attack"), charging or moving close to or in the middle of the party, should suffice.

Other monsters are more trickier.

3) How often does it sustain continuing damage?

This should be easier to handle, just keep it's DPR equal to it's equivalent monsters DPR.

4) How often can it make saving throws?

This is more of an issue.
I'm houseruling that Solos, for example, don't get it's bonus for ongoing damage. They already have lots of hitpoints.

Solos that act two times in a turn shouldn't have a saving throw bonus either, they are making two of them, which is roughly equivalent to a +5.

The Behir, which acts three times ina turn, it's totally broken in this aspect.
He shouldn't have a +5 bonus, since it will have 3 different opportunities to get rid of the effect.

 

[jester_gl]

I think it would have been clearer if it would have been sustain standard. Even if that sustain minor took only one of his action each turn, I don't really see how he could breath lightning or bite someone else with someone in his mouth.

I see that the way to go against him (or against multiple attack per round monster in general) is to trigger anything you have that grant resistance all.

Word of advice: Don't bite more than you can chew.