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General Beholders and anti magic

werecorpse

Adventurer
I’m building the lair of a beholder who is meant to be smart connected and powerful. I see that animated object monsters like flying swords have anti magic susceptibility but golems don’t. Does this mean that such a creature works as normal in an antimagic cone?

So the beholder could say disintegrate a room so it had a covered position 100’ above an entrance then loose a creature immune to non magic weapons (say a golem) and under an anti magic cone let it beat the party up?

how would you interpret anti magic Ray in this circumstance?
 

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dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
Interesting discussion!

Well, according to the text on golems, they are constructs but once created do not need to be considered magical. A DM could rule it that way, but then spells such as Dispel Magic would stop them (even if only for a round). Also, in this scenario, if golems are considered magical, obviously it would simply cease to function while in the beholder's anti-magic cone.

The other side applies to the weapons. Like the golem, once they are crafted they are magical. An anti-magic cone doesn't stop them from being magical, it merely suppresses their magical properties. They are still forged and crafted to be exceptional, etc. IMO.

As a DM, I would say that while in the anti-magic cone, the golem continues to function, the weapons are still magical for overcoming the golem's resistance, but the weapons obviously lose any pluses or other properties it has. So, a +1 battleaxe would lose the +1 to attack and damage rolls, but still do a full d8 weapon damage, not halved.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
Golems are elemental spirits in material form. Their creation may be magical, but they are not powered by magic. Otherwise it suppresses all magic, including items.
 

TheSword

Legend
Supporter
I’m building the lair of a beholder who is meant to be smart connected and powerful. I see that animated object monsters like flying swords have anti magic susceptibility but golems don’t. Does this mean that such a creature works as normal in an antimagic cone?

So the beholder could say disintegrate a room so it had a covered position 100’ above an entrance then loose a creature immune to non magic weapons (say a golem) and under an anti magic cone let it beat the party up?

how would you interpret anti magic Ray in this circumstance?
You could. I would allow them a chance to get an adamantine weapon though so as not to ruin them. Or make the golem very slow.

This makes me think of an idea where the beholder uses its cone to make certain traps unable to overcome by magic... maybe there are Magical mirrors that focus the beam onto certain areas.
 

werecorpse

Adventurer
So
Golems are elemental spirits in material form. Their creation may be magical, but they are not powered by magic. Otherwise it suppresses all magic, including items.
So can you damage a golem with a magic weapon while in an anti magic field?

seems not raw
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
So

So can you damage a golem with a magic weapon while in an anti magic field?

seems not raw
No. A magic sword in an anti-magic zone is just a sword. The golem on the other hand is powered by an elemental spirit and is therefore unaffected. The golem doesn't rely on external magical force any more than a dragon.

I think it could lead to kind of interesting quest. You know the BBEG is in a permanent anti-magic zone protected by golems so the party has to quest for special items and weapons that are not traditional and are instead powered by elemental spirits. :unsure:
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
seems not raw
There's not much in 5E that is "RAW", as more stuff, especially like this, is up to interpretation.

I agree with @Oofta that such a scenario could make for an interesting challenge, but also it would be entirely reasonable to rule:

1. the golem won't function if the weapons don't;
2. the golem functions and the magic weapons can still override its resistance (but lose their features);
3. the golem functions and the weapons become completely mundane.

So, really it just depends on what sort of game you want to run/DM.

Finally, if you go with the need for adamantine weapons, you will have to come rules or a quest for how they can get them.
 

The golems will function. Just like a warforged would. Once given "life" magic no longer apply to the animation of the creature.
The golems, however, would not be able to use "magical" innate powers such as the "slow effect" from the stone golem. Otherwise, the golem is unaffected by an anti-magic zone.
 

DMMike

Guide of Modos
The golems will function. Just like a warforged would. Once given "life" magic no longer apply to the animation of the creature.
The golems, however, would not be able to use "magical" innate powers such as the "slow effect" from the stone golem. Otherwise, the golem is unaffected by an anti-magic zone.
Golems are elemental spirits in material form. Their creation may be magical, but they are not powered by magic. Otherwise it suppresses all magic, including items.
Golems are elemental spirits in material form. That material form is a slab of clay, rock, iron, etc.* which have no capacity to move unless affected by an outside force. A golem doesn't cease to exist because it's in an anti-magic field, but the magical stuff it does, like moving, doesn't have much justification to happen there.

A warforged is a different story. These can be expected to have working parts, mechanical, chemical, or otherwise. The only magic that these would need is the spark of life, which an anti-magic field apparently doesn't snuff.

If the beholder is 100 feet up, dropping golems on the PCs from that height might have a better effect.

*Flesh golems have working parts. In theory. Send those into the anti-magic field and see what happens.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
Golems are elemental spirits in material form. That material form is a slab of clay, rock, iron, etc.* which have no capacity to move unless affected by an outside force. A golem doesn't cease to exist because it's in an anti-magic field, but the magical stuff it does, like moving, doesn't have much justification to happen there.

A warforged is a different story. These can be expected to have working parts, mechanical, chemical, or otherwise. The only magic that these would need is the spark of life, which an anti-magic field apparently doesn't snuff.

If the beholder is 100 feet up, dropping golems on the PCs from that height might have a better effect.

*Flesh golems have working parts. In theory. Send those into the anti-magic field and see what happens.
According to the rules:
Elemental Spirit in Material Form. The construction of a golem begins with the building of its body, requiring great command of the craft of sculpting, stonecutting, ironworking, or surgery. Sometimes a golem’s creator is the master of the art, but often the individual who desires a golem must enlist master artisans to do the work.​
After constructing the body from clay, flesh, iron, or stone, the golem’s creator infuses it with a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth. This tiny spark of life has no memory, personality, or history. It is simply the impetus to move and obey. This process binds the spirit to the artificial body and subjects it to the will of the golem’s creator.​

Feel free to rule differently, but there are other creatures that don't make sense from our understanding of physics. Giants would collapse under their own weight, gargoyles would just be statues, a clay golem would just be a lump of clay. It's the elemental spirit that powers the form, no external magic is required.
 

According to the rules:
Elemental Spirit in Material Form. The construction of a golem begins with the building of its body, requiring great command of the craft of sculpting, stonecutting, ironworking, or surgery. Sometimes a golem’s creator is the master of the art, but often the individual who desires a golem must enlist master artisans to do the work.​
After constructing the body from clay, flesh, iron, or stone, the golem’s creator infuses it with a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth. This tiny spark of life has no memory, personality, or history. It is simply the impetus to move and obey. This process binds the spirit to the artificial body and subjects it to the will of the golem’s creator.​

Feel free to rule differently, but there are other creatures that don't make sense from our understanding of physics. Giants would collapse under their own weight, gargoyles would just be statues, a clay golem would just be a lump of clay. It's the elemental spirit that powers the form, no external magic is required.
This is exactly RAW. That spark of life is unaffected by an anti-magic field. Otherwise, playing a warforged would not be cool under any circumstances. Being shut down by the first twit casting a dispel magic on you (as in animated objects) or the first anti-magic field done by a wizard (or beholder here) would not be fun to play. And what about wild magic zone? Having your warforged doing crazy stuff without your consent just because is not in the cool aspect either.
 

Mort

Hero
Supporter
No. A magic sword in an anti-magic zone is just a sword. The golem on the other hand is powered by an elemental spirit and is therefore unaffected. The golem doesn't rely on external magical force any more than a dragon.

I think it could lead to kind of interesting quest. You know the BBEG is in a permanent anti-magic zone protected by golems so the party has to quest for special items and weapons that are not traditional and are instead powered by elemental spirits. :unsure:
That would be cool. My current group would have a different solution though, as they have a bunch of adamantine weapons - which work just fine on golems.

So that's another solution, if you want to throw this at the party, but don't want to be too nasty (golems are immune not resistant to weapons that are not admantine or magical) have them find an admantine weapon clutched in hands of a dead body (which also serves as a nice clue/foreshadowing as t what they're in for).
 

DMMike

Guide of Modos
According to the rules . . . It's the elemental spirit that powers the form, no external magic is required.
According to Antimagic Field:
5e SRD said:
Magic Items. The properties and powers of magic items are suppressed in the sphere. For example, a +1 longsword in the sphere functions as a nonmagical longsword. A magic weapon’s properties and powers are suppressed if it is used against a target in the sphere or wielded by an attacker in the sphere. If a magic weapon or a piece of magic ammunition fully leaves the sphere (for example, if you fire a magic arrow or throw a magic spear at a target outside the sphere), the magic of the item ceases to be suppressed as soon as it exits. . .

Creatures and Objects. A creature or object summoned or created by magic temporarily winks out of existence in the sphere. Such a creature instantly reappears once the space the creature occupied is no longer within the sphere.
That elemental spirit can be as internal as you want, but a golem is still created by magic, which means it should "wink out of existence." I'm giving werecorpse the benefit of the doubt, and putting golems in the magic item category - so they'll do less winking and more crushing.
 

werecorpse

Adventurer
But DMMike whereas animated object creatures like flying swords have this trait:

Antimagic Susceptibility: The sword is Incapacitated while in the area of an Antimagic Field. If targeted by Dispel Magic, the sword must succeed on a Constitution saving throw against the caster's spell save DC or fall Unconscious for 1 minute.

and golems don‘t. Surely if they are intended to be affected by it they should have this trait? The fact that they don’t have this trait is what lead me to believe that they aren’t rendered inert.

I would tend to read that part of the text in antimagic field on Creature and Object where it talks about a creature “created” by magic as more wholly animated like an animate object Or like an illusion rather than one that had magic as it’s impetus like a golem or a ghoul created by a spell.
 

There is nothing in the monster stat block that says golems are magical or created magically. Just that "the golem’s creator infuses it with a spirit…"

There is a magic item called the manual of golems that suggests magic is involved (using words like "eldritch" but nothing to say that this is the only way to create a golem.

My take is that once animated, a golem runs on normal life force, just like all other strange creatures. An anti-magic field has no effect on it, just like it has no effect on a dragon or an ooze.

There might have been magic used to initially create the golem, but that magic is now over, in the same way that teleport and raise dead are over once done. After all, you woulnd't expect someone who has been raised from the dead to fall over dead upon entering an anti9-magic zone.

Or to put it another way, if the magical effect used had a duration of "instantaneous" then anti-magix zones have no effect on it.
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
Here's a way to look at it:

If you reincarnate a PC, and they walk into an Antimagic Field or the central eye of a Beholder, does the PC wink out of existence?

Magic was used to create the PC's new body, but after it is made it is the PC's soul that gives it life.
 

Mort

Hero
Supporter
According to Antimagic Field:


That elemental spirit can be as internal as you want, but a golem is still created by magic, which means it should "wink out of existence." I'm giving werecorpse the benefit of the doubt, and putting golems in the magic item category - so they'll do Gownsless winking and more crushing.
As already mentioned above - maintained (as in continually animated) by magic not simply created by magic is the key.

Specifically :

Anything that would be shut down by dispel magic is tagged with Antimagic Susceptibility. Golems do not have this tag so are not shut down (FYI, the tag was not something only introduced in later supplements, the tag is present in monsters included even in the basic rules) .
 

Golems are elemental spirits in material form. That material form is a slab of clay, rock, iron, etc.* which have no capacity to move unless affected by an outside force. A golem doesn't cease to exist because it's in an anti-magic field, but the magical stuff it does, like moving, doesn't have much justification to happen there.
Nope. Golems work just fine in AMF's. AMF's dont affect creatures unless noted (but will affect any abilities called out as 'Magical' in the text).

Animated objects, dont function in AMFs. They have a specific rule that calls them out.

Golems work just fine in AMF's just like 50 tonne Dragons can fly in one and breathe fire in one.
 

DMMike

Guide of Modos
But DMMike whereas animated object creatures like flying swords have this trait:

Antimagic Susceptibility: The sword is Incapacitated while in the area of an Antimagic Field. If targeted by Dispel Magic, the sword must succeed on a Constitution saving throw against the caster's spell save DC or fall Unconscious for 1 minute.
This is your call. I am definitely not going to wait around for printed D&D text (including errata) to tell me how to run my game...

There is nothing in the monster stat block that says golems are magical or created magically. Just that "the golem’s creator infuses it with a spirit…"
Not magical. So, what, golems come from the golem-stork when they're born, and go to see the golem-barber when they're sick? Like all other non-magical creatures?

There might have been magic used to initially create the golem, but that magic is now over, in the same way that teleport and raise dead are over once done. After all, you woulnd't expect someone who has been raised from the dead to fall over dead upon entering an anti9-magic zone.
This is probably my favorite argument of the thread. Instantaneous means, basically, that the magic's over, per the rules. Now, I still think that leaves some pretty big gaps, but here we are.

Someone who's been raised from the dead has been restored to life: the condition of living under one's own power. A golem never does this; it's a rock. Or a suit of armor. But a person, raised from the dead, doesn't walk around with the mortal wounds that did him in. That would be magical. Instead, those wounds are healed, and he persists normally, as well as not dying again once in an anti-magic field (until an inert golem gets dropped on his head).

Nope. Golems work just fine in AMF's. AMF's dont affect creatures unless noted (but will affect any abilities called out as 'Magical' in the text).
So, you're not counting the Creatures and Objects portion of AMF? What about the Spells portion, which says a "magical effect" on a "creature or an object" is suppressed? I'd like to see a golem created without a magical effect.

Golems work just fine in AMF's just like 50 tonne Dragons can fly in one and breathe fire in one.
Sure. Maybe dragons have a unique feature of their excretory systems that reroutes gas to their mouths, where it can be set aflame by the sparks of their grinding teeth. But I'm not buying that dragon flight is non-magical, unless the dragon is shaped like a pterydactyl. And it's wearing a jetpack.
 

So, you're not counting the Creatures and Objects portion of AMF? What about the Spells portion, which says a "magical effect" on a "creature or an object" is suppressed? I'd like to see a golem created without a magical effect.
Hey man you do you, but you're wrong both RAW and RAI.

Id like to see half the creatures in the MM created or exist without a 'magical effect' or fly without one, or do a billion things without magic.

The RAW in 5E is that some abilities and creatures are 'magical' and dont function in an AMF. Some are just weird (but not magical) and do. The RAW is express as to which ones work and which ones dont.

Golems are not one of those things that an AMF supresses. Ask Crawford if you want the RAI as well (it's already been asked of him by the way). Golems (RAW and RAI) can move around just fine in an AMF. They cant however use many of their special abilities (Slow for example on a Stone Golem, because that's expressly called out as being 'magical')

But again, you do you. If you want to make rulings in contravention of the rules, it's your game, go nuts. Just please dont tell others those rulings are the RAW or RAI.

Sure. Maybe dragons have a unique feature of their excretory systems that reroutes gas to their mouths, where it can be set aflame by the sparks of their grinding teeth. But I'm not buying that dragon flight is non-magical, unless the dragon is shaped like a pterydactyl. And it's wearing a jetpack.
So... in your games An Ancient White Dragon falls from the sky in an AMF because its flight is 'magical' despite the RAW that only things expressly called out as magical (or using spell slots) are magical?

Wow.

What about Monks running along walls and water? Works in an AMF or doesnt work?
 

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