D&D 5E Berserker is balanced with Zealot without exhaustion from Frenzy

[dirtybum78]

So, I know this thread is quite old but I just wanted to quickly share why I believe Berserker has (and should keep) the exhaustion when using frenzy. While the normal attack damage from the frenzy attack and divine fury have similar values, there is one thing you seem to be forgetting; the frenzy attack can crit. Since frenzy can crit, it effectively allows for you to crit 50% more often than you would without it. As you know, crits are fantastic for barbarians because of brutal critical, and the extra attack can allow you to do the barbarian's massive critical damage spikes much more often then any other primal path. Berserker can make up to four attacks in a turn, amounting to a doubled crit chance when compared to other paths. Exhaustion is fine, and in most cases worth it for the significantly increased DPR.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Sorry, but I still disagree. Even if that math is correct, the fact remains that the Berserker is the ONLY class option that carries a penalty for its use. The only other effect that has any kind of penalty associated with it is the Haste spell, and even that only lasts a round (not to mention Haste is in no way a signature class ability like Frenzy is to the Berserker). Not only that, but the Frenzy effect can be easily replicated by just dual wielding. The damage may be slightly less, but you have essentially the same capacity to farm for crits. If you don't consider feats (which are optional anyways), Frenzy effectively makes you slightly more effective in DPR than a dual-wielding Bear totem barbarian, who also benefits from nearly universal resistance. The difference between a d8 weapon and a d12 weapon is an average damage of 2.

Additionally, consider that Frenzy is 3rd level. To benefit from power critical, you have to make it to level 9 before that even comes into play. So a player needs to suffer for 6 levels before they even start to see any real benefit from their signature class ability?

If you want to limit the number of uses of Frenzy, that's one thing. But to put a penalty on a character using the class ability that is their whole identity is not only overly harsh, but flies in the face of every design principle 5e has maintained since its inception.

 

[NotAYakk]

The bonus dice on a barbarian crit contribute very little to barbarian DPR. To get reasonably reliable criticals, you'll want elven accuracy enhanced self advantage on 19-20 crit range, using hexblade for cha to attack.

And barbarians get ... self advantage that cannot stack with elven accuracy from that kit.

If you doubled barbarian crit dice and granted 19+ crits, they'd be contributing decent damage. But that is literally 4x as effective as RAW.

 

[jgsugden]

I played a berserker for 18 levels. It was insanely fun. I never felt underpowered or weak. I kicked bootie. That means it was just fine. Period. Fine. Full stop.

That guy gets it.

If you play a Berserker, you'll find that they're fun, and they work as written. So log as that is true, they are perfectly fine. Once you get to 14th level, and you can end up making 4 attacks per round with that high level of damage (MMBR)... well, you feel plenty strong.

Is it a contender for overpowered? No. But as it is fun as it is, there is no need to change a thing.

 

[Guest 6801328]

That guy gets it.

If you play a Berserker, you'll find that they're fun, and they work as written. So log as that is true, they are perfectly fine. Once you get to 14th level, and you can end up making 4 attacks per round with that high level of damage (MMBR)... well, you feel plenty strong.

Is it a contender for overpowered? No. But as it is fun as it is, there is no need to change a thing.

Yeah, I've been planning to play a berserker next campaign. My armchair quarterback impression is that if you save the ability for boss fights and/or just before long rests (both of which, in my experience, are fairly easy to anticipate, and often occur together) there's basically no penalty. And that if you guess wrong, or just need to use it when things hit the fan early in the adventuring day, the penalty is a nuisance but not crippling.

And the best part is, even if you've already used it, if the fight turns desperate you can use it again. And again! And...and...well, do you feel lucky, punk?

If the choice were between the ability as written, or usable once per long rest with no penalty, I would absolutely take it as written. Way more fun and flexible.

But, as I said above, I'm talking out of my nether regions here, because I've never actually played one. I will remedy that, and report back.

 

[Guest 6801328]

And on that note...any suggestions for build? I'd most likely go VHuman because I love feats, or Half-orc because...Half-orc. I'm not so into exotic races, so I probably wouldn't consider Goliaths or Genasi or w/e.

For feats, GWM is a cliche, I know, but there's just so much wonderful synergy with Reckless Attacks. However Slasher is also really appealing. If I went with a race that grants +2 Str I could start with a 17 Str, and then at 4 take Slasher, with +1 to Str for 18. Mobility is also really good, but hitting and running away doesn't sound like a strategy for a self-respecting Berserker.

 

[Gladius Legis]

The 2 changes I'd make to Frenzy are:
1) You immediately make one melee weapon attack against an enemy within your range the moment you activate frenzy.
2) You may frenzy without consequence a number of times equal to half your proficiency bonus (rounded up) between long rests. You sustain one level of exhaustion for every additional time you choose to frenzy beyond that.

EDIT: Reduced consequence-less Frenzies from proficiency bonus to half PB rounded up.

 

[Guest 6801328]

The 2 changes I'd make to Frenzy are:
1) You immediately make one melee weapon attack against an enemy within your range when you choose to frenzy.
2) You may frenzy without consequence a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus between long rests. You sustain one level of exhaustion for every additional time you choose to frenzy beyond that.

So one use of Frenzy gives you one free attack?

 

[Gladius Legis]

So one use of Frenzy gives you one free attack?

More like it actually gives you the stated benefit of Frenzy on your first turn. Right now you have to wait until Round 2 before you start getting your additional attacks.

 

[jgsugden]

...
2) You may frenzy without consequence a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus between long rests. You sustain one level of exhaustion for every additional time you choose to frenzy beyond that.

So you can Frenzy three time per LR at level 3 and 4, then 4 at 5 to 8 (while having only 1 level of exhaustion afterwards). That is essentially free Frenzy. I would not bother tracking it if this is the rule - tracking it is more bother than benefit.