D&D 5E Berserker is balanced with Zealot without exhaustion from Frenzy

[UngeheuerLich]

I think that award would go squarely into Tiger Totem.

Bear: Huge defense bonus
Wolf: Awesome team offense bonus
Eagle/Elk: Amazing mobility increase (eagle blows elk out of the water to me, but both are still in the same vein).
Tiger: Um...I get to jump a little farther.

Oh yes. I forgot tiger...

 

[BookBarbarian]

Having seen a berserker played (I'm the DM) at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels (we did a time skip campaign), I can say that while they may not be equal to a Zealot in raw performance, they are still very good.

The immunity to fear and charm is a really overlooked ability, especially with a DM who allows his characters to shine by giving spotlight to their strengths. For example, in one combat, a creature attempted to dominate the barbarian. The barb was immune to charm and so immune to the effect. But he rolled a great bluff check to act like his was dominated, so we played it out that the barbarian was able to get nice and close to the monster, and then ripped it to pieces.

Most players are going to remember that scene a lot longer than all the combats they did a few more points of damage.

My point is not that the subclass is balanced (I agree its behind the curve), but its not "failed". As long as a class provides good hooks that let characters shine, the DM can balance the rest. Its the classes that have no hooks, that are just watered down and generic, that are truly "fails".

Mindless Rage and Retaliation are really awesome. I wish Retaliation had been the level 3 feature and frenzy bumped up to a later level.

 

[EerieEgg]

@BookBarbarian Agreed — though Retaliate is a wonderful ability (though I wouldn’t place it above Divine Fury due to its inconsistency and a tendency for DMs in my experience to have intelligent foes just ... not attack the Barbarian — I don’t agree with that since it can feel meta gamey on the DMs part imo but it is something I’ve seen DMs do which makes Retaliate far worse — same for DMs that will simply have enemies not take the Opportunity attack you give them since they don’t want to trigger your Retaliate) it comes far too late — id say most campaigns even don’t get to lv14.

And Intimidating Presence though cool from a flavor standpoint is very weak and impractical in my estimation.

I really wish Retaliate came sooner in leveling.

 

[BookBarbarian]

@BookBarbarian Agreed — though Retaliate is a wonderful ability (though I wouldn’t place it above Divine Fury due to its inconsistency and a tendency for DMs in my experience to have intelligent foes just ... not attack the Barbarian — I don’t agree with that since it can feel meta gamey on the DMs part imo but it is something I’ve seen DMs do which makes Retaliate far worse — same for DMs that will simply have enemies not take the Opportunity attack you give them since they don’t want to trigger your Retaliate) it comes far too late — id say most campaigns even don’t get to lv14.

And Intimidating Presence though cool from a flavor standpoint is very weak and impractical in my estimation.

I really wish Retaliate came sooner in leveling.

Retaliation just feels more thematic to me on a Berserker than even Frenzy

"You hit me, I hit you"

 

[EerieEgg]

This is sort of off topic, but I was recently looking into Fighters and it seems like at higher levels, certain builds become very powerful in comparison with Berserker -- at least in terms of damage output.

For example, Battle Master with a Maul/GWM/GWF can use Trip Attack then use GWM swings for their following attacks. They can combine this with Action Surge and also Riposte, Disarm, etc. Disarm is amazing -- caster has a staff? Make them do a str save then pick it up or kick it away with your free object interaction. Or, make that knight drop their shield so your GWM feat is better against them.

They have a dramatically better "Fear" ability than Berserker in Menacing Strike, can reroll saving throws in a similar fashion to Fanatical Focus, and can even take advantage of some Charisma investment with Rally or the Inspiring Leader feat since Fighters get so many ASI/Feat slots.

So, of course Barbarian gets damage resistance and is more tanky perhaps, but Fighters get to wear plate and don't give their opponents advantage on them (and can forgo Dex investment if they want to put those points into something else -- Barbarians are more or less locked into probably 14 dex for medium armor).

I enjoy playing Barbarians more from a roleplay/flavor standpoint, but in the late game it seems like they get passed up in damage output by some of the Fighter subclasses and are also just more "boring" to play turn by turn since Barbs usually just do the same rotation. Even Berserker while using Frenzy and Retaliate only really beats Battle Master in very niche scenarios. You basically need a very prolonged sustained fight against an enemy that cannot be Trip Attacked in my estimation. Otherwise, Battle Master has some insane Burst with Action Surge/Trip Attack/GWM and solid sustained damage to boot. And just a lot of cool creative stuff to do like knocking enemies into pits of lava with Push Attack for example. Only gripe I have with Battle Master is that many of their maneuvers are objectively awful (like Sweeping attack/lunging attack -- these scale horribly).

I really wish Berserker was a bit better than it is I've got a real soft spot for them. Maybe i'll just start playing Battle Masters...

Originally I felt it would be too powerful to simply turn Frenzy into an "Extra Attack" that doesn't use the Bonus Action, but after looking at other things that exist via stock 5e, I'm not so sure that that would be OP since it would still come along with a level of exhaustion.

 

[FrogReaver]

This is sort of off topic, but I was recently looking into Fighters and it seems like at higher levels, certain builds become very powerful in comparison with Berserker -- at least in terms of damage output.

For example, Battle Master with a Maul/GWM/GWF can use Trip Attack then use GWM swings for their following attacks. They can combine this with Action Surge and also Riposte, Disarm, etc. Disarm is amazing -- caster has a staff? Make them do a str save then pick it up or kick it away with your free object interaction. Or, make that knight drop their shield so your GWM feat is better against them.

They have a dramatically better "Fear" ability than Berserker in Menacing Strike, can reroll saving throws in a similar fashion to Fanatical Focus, and can even take advantage of some Charisma investment with Rally or the Inspiring Leader feat since Fighters get so many ASI/Feat slots.

So, of course Barbarian gets damage resistance and is more tanky perhaps, but Fighters get to wear plate and don't give their opponents advantage on them (and can forgo Dex investment if they want to put those points into something else -- Barbarians are more or less locked into probably 14 dex for medium armor).

I enjoy playing Barbarians more from a roleplay/flavor standpoint, but in the late game it seems like they get passed up in damage output by some of the Fighter subclasses and are also just more "boring" to play turn by turn since Barbs usually just do the same rotation. Even Berserker while using Frenzy and Retaliate only really beats Battle Master in very niche scenarios. You basically need a very prolonged sustained fight against an enemy that cannot be Trip Attacked in my estimation. Otherwise, Battle Master has some insane Burst with Action Surge/Trip Attack/GWM and solid sustained damage to boot. And just a lot of cool creative stuff to do like knocking enemies into pits of lava with Push Attack for example. Only gripe I have with Battle Master is that many of their maneuvers are objectively awful (like Sweeping attack/lunging attack -- these scale horribly).

I really wish Berserker was a bit better than it is I've got a real soft spot for them. Maybe i'll just start playing Battle Masters...

Originally I felt it would be too powerful to simply turn Frenzy into an "Extra Attack" that doesn't use the Bonus Action, but after looking at other things that exist via stock 5e, I'm not so sure that that would be OP since it would still come along with a level of exhaustion.

For consistent turn after turn damage look at a zealot barbarian with reckless GWM and polearm master. It’s pretty impressive and if I recall fairly competitive against a similar fighter over most ac’s

 

[EerieEgg]

Coming back to Berserker's "Retaliate", is the feature overrated?

For sometime on paper at least, I thought it would be quite good -- especially since you can provoke Opportunity Attacks during your own turn (that you may resist the damage from to boot) to guarantee it triggers and to gain "Reckless Attack" on your "Retaliation".

In practice, however -- I now think the ability kinda sucks purely because DMs can deny you your Retaliate -- and will probably do so when you're up against "intelligent" enemies. For example, I've had two DM that simply have enemies ignore hitting the Barbarian at all -- they put their damage towards other more "squishy' chars.

They also have enemies simply not take the Opportunity Attack you give them if you're a Berserker. Therefore, Retaliate most often does not come into play at all.

Additionally, if you do Retaliate, you then threaten no Opportunity Attack for the turn which means your opponent is free to move away from you at that point -- maybe not a huge deal, but it is relevant.

Basically since intelligent foes will either not attack the barbarian (at least not til he's the last man standing) OR will focus them with mental saves that they're specifically weak to, I actually now think Retaliate is at least somewhat overrated.

Any ability that DMs can "meta game" and screw you out of using is not an ability that I really want or like. "Divine Fury" is great on the other hand because you almost always get it and your DM can't do much to deny you from getting it for example.

Zealot's "Rage Beyond Death" is an ability I also think I don't like (though I also don't like the idea of infinite HP Druid) -- I'd go so far as to say that ability maybe is poorly designed because it is completely binary -- either you CANNOT be killed anything in the encounter (physical damage won't cut it) or your enemy has one of the counters (sleep/calm emotions/power word kill/etc) and the ability is near useless. DMs will simply "meta game" to have an answer prepared for it OR it makes you literally unkillable if no such answer is provided for enemies to have. I don't think that's very fun in either case since either your DM is meta gaming to counter you or your enemies literally pose no threat to you at all.

 

[S'mon]

I found Retaliate incredibly powerful in solo game, and in duels. Yes with a group, NPCs will likely avoid attacking the Barbarian - but that is already the case thanks to Rage.

 

[El_Jairo24]

I found Retaliate incredibly powerful in solo game, and in duels. Yes with a group, NPCs will likely avoid attacking the Barbarian - but that is already the case thanks to Rage.

I would pair Retaliate with the Sentinel Feature, to improve on the 'taunting' ability of the Berserker.

Sure, the DM can meta-game you by first making an attack at your Barbarian, to try to make you use your reaction with Retaliate. But since you have Sentinel, you can prefer to hold on to your reaction for when of the baddies wants to leave your 'aura of pain'.

Typically, it's a good thing when the Barbarian is drawing the physical attacks to him, no?

I might consider wielding a versatile Weapon, because in your AoO you can make a Grapple Attack, so you have a mini-Sentinel Feature (because of the ADV on Athletics, while raging), only you need to give up some raw damage for it.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Berserker extra attack should just lose the bonus action requirement and it would be fine enough.
Maybe that is the buff it needs. So you are free to stilm take gwm or polearm master or both and still can pull out the big gun when it really matters.