D&D 5E Berserker is balanced with Zealot without exhaustion from Frenzy

[EerieEgg]

@S'mon If you saw the pdf/screeshot of the "Revised" Berserker above that was put together with feedback from Discord & Dragons/dndnext, the "short rest recover a level of exhaustion" that you use is more or less what was settled on there, but in exchange for hit dice along with a "once per long rest while raging" action economy improvement for the otherwise underwhelming "Intimidating Presence" feature (another revision was released that simply uses the stock IP as a ribbon feature -- the attached image above has been updated with the new version). I agree with you that letting the Zerker have some help on short rests goes a long way for bringing Zerker up to what I'd consider to be a more fair level with its competition.

@Sword of Spirit Great analysis, I agree with what you wrote up there. Thanks for pointing all that out. You're certainly right that a problem is that DMs will probably just stop having characters take the Op Attack in some cases so though it might make the feature a bit better than it otherwise would be, it's not free as you say and it won't be a 100% of the time extra attack. Another huge problem that you point out is LV14 -- many campaigns just never get that far. Anyway, great write-up. Zealot does make picking Zerker a much tougher sell than it used to be. I love the "flavor" of the primal path so much though.

 

[MiraMels]

See, to me, this isn't an argument in favor of revising the Path of the Berserker. This is an argument in favor of revising (or just not using) the Path of the Zealot.

 

[EerieEgg]

@MiraMels I guess that’s a fair way to look at the problem too.

If my understanding is right, “Battlerager” and “Berserker” seem to bring up the “bottom” while Totem/Zealot are most commonly picked at tables in my experience (though I also think Ancestral Guardian is really good).

I find it harder to bring the top ones down a bit than to bring the weaker ones up a bit though personally. A lot of players are less fond of the approach you suggest as well in my experience if they want to play Zealot for example.

Of course this thread is about Berserker and I haven't given this as much thought, but some common changes I've seen for used for Battlerager are:

1) Allow the existence of "Magical" spiked armor (Adamantine/+1/+2/+3 variants) that can increase the damage of the "Bonus Action" attack a bit and allow the spiked armor attacks to work vs enemies immune to non-magical damage.

2) Replace all of their "3" damage points with "Rage Damage" since it scales a bit better (ends up being 2-4 instead of a flat 3 -- this is a relatively small change, but makes it ultimately a wee-bit better, especially vs enemies that hit you with multiple attacks or that resist piercing/melee damage).

3) Remove the race restriction

Of course any "homebrew"/"house-rules" should be carefully considered since I think a common problem with these community reworks is overdoing it and pushing things too far/going overboard where something a bit under ends up becoming OP to some degree when really it just needs to be given that little nudge to bring it up to par.

 

[FrogReaver]

One of the biggest downsides to the Frenzy Barbarian is that you don't get to use the bonus action attack on the turn you rage.

 

[EerieEgg]

@FrogReaver Agreed, I hear you.

In a previous revision to that "Revised Path of the Berserker" pdf above, Frenzy had been changed to read as:

"Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, you can make one additional melee weapon attack as part of your attack action this turn only and for the duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns after this one. When your rage ends, you suffer one level of exhaustion."

This was intended as a compromise to improve Frenzy a bit without making it too OP in the way it was felt simply changing it into an Extra Attack each turn instead of a Bonus Action would be. So, we wanted to take away the "Delay" that comes with Frenzy where you can't begin using it until your next turn.

In feedback on dndnext and Discord and Dragons, some responders liked this, but more seemed concerned with having better ways to deal with the Exhaustion mechanic. Ultimately, it was felt having both this Frenzy buff and the addition of Hearty and the improvement to Intimidating Presence would be going too far so it was dropped (EDIT: It was not dropped -- a new revision was decided on inline with further feedback that's now attached to my first comment on this thread).

I definitely agree with you though that it makes using Frenzy feel a lot worse having it delayed by a turn before it even does anything for you. Especially since at max level, other barbarians can both use their core feature AND use their bonus action since you can enter combat already raging (crawford ruled on this/see errata for combining game effects).

 

[Campbell]

We should not make game play changes based on numbers tuning. If the game play needs to be adjusted we should do that. If the numbers need to be tuned in a different way we should do that. These are separate questions with different sorts of solutions. Is the game play fun? Fix it until it is fun. Then make the numbers work.

 

[FrogReaver]

We should not make game play changes based on numbers tuning. If the game play needs to be adjusted we should do that. If the numbers need to be tuned in a different way we should do that. These are separate questions with different sorts of solutions. Is the game play fun? Fix it until it is fun. Then make the numbers work.

Those 2 things are much more interrelated than you think.

 

[FrogReaver]

@FrogReaver Agreed, I hear you.

In a previous revision to that "Revised Path of the Berserker" pdf above, Frenzy had been changed to read as:


This was intended as a compromise to improve Frenzy a bit without making it too OP in the way it was felt simply changing it into an Extra Attack each turn instead of a Bonus Action would be. So, we wanted to take away the "Delay" that comes with Frenzy where you can't begin using it until your next turn.

In feedback on dndnext and Discord and Dragons, some responders liked this, but more seemed concerned with having better ways to deal with the Exhaustion mechanic. Ultimately, it was felt having both this Frenzy buff and the addition of Hearty and the improvement to Intimidating Presence would be going too far so it was dropped.

I definitely agree with you though that it makes using Frenzy feel a lot worse having it delayed by a turn before it even does anything for you. Especially since at max level, other barbarians can both use their core feature AND use their bonus action since you can enter combat already raging (crawford ruled on this/see errata for combining game effects).

IMO. Exhaustion should never have been the downside to using frenzy. Have you considered just capping the number of times frenzy can be used per day to 2 or 3?

A blurb about how doing it more than that many times per day is too tiring would keep the flavor the same.

 

[S'mon]

IMO. Exhaustion should never have been the downside to using frenzy. Have you considered just capping the number of times frenzy can be used per day to 2 or 3?

A blurb about how doing it more than that many times per day is too tiring would keep the flavor the same.

I find my short rest exhaustion recovery plus capping SRs at 3/day works perfectly.

Oh there is also the option in the Primeval Thule players guide of a feat that reduces your exhaustion level by 3 I think, which can be used by anyone but benefits Berserkers the most.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Zealot may be better than a bezerker, but it still sucks compared to a paladin, so I would bring up the weaker barbarians rather than nerf the stronger ones.

I would say that the existence of magical armor spikes is pretty much essential for battleragers to be viable, and the race "restriction" was never stronger than a suggestion.