Level Up (A5E) Berserker too strong?

[tetrasodium]

The Out Of Combat vs In Combat balancing point has always been godawful design and seems to be one of the main things A5E sought to end by giving every Class out of combat abilities to meaningfully engage with every portion of the game. Adept has a ton of build versatility being built more like the Warlock, and can end up with a wide range of things to spend it's increased Exhaustion Pool on. Which makes it hard to compare because what exactly an Adept is can vary so much, but between versatility utility and adaptable Nova potential I'm confident it can hold it's ground, unlike the o5e Monk which is a spit in the face to the very concept of competent design. As for a DPR analysis of Martial Strikers, haven't seen one but would definitely love to.

That may be so, but the adept has a lot of nondamage stuff it can do in combat

 

[VanguardHero]

Oh absolutely, and that's what I meant by versatility utility. There's a lot they can do in combat, they're incredibly adaptable. I just meant that they aren't fourth rate combatants anymore.

 

[messythekoala]

The Out Of Combat vs In Combat balancing point has always been godawful design and seems to be one of the main things A5E sought to end by giving every Class out of combat abilities to meaningfully engage with every portion of the game. Adept has a ton of build versatility being built more like the Warlock, and can end up with a wide range of things to spend it's increased Exhaustion Pool on. Which makes it hard to compare because what exactly an Adept is can vary so much, but between versatility utility and adaptable Nova potential I'm confident it can hold it's ground, unlike the o5e Monk which is a spit in the face to the very concept of competent design. As for a DPR analysis of Martial Strikers, haven't seen one but would definitely love to.

Oh ya I love the fact that Adept/Ranger 17/3 (Ya high level I know but still) with the Nightstalker feats can cast a 9th level spell per rest (Go Hokage Adept!) so ya its DPR can be banana's silly. I also wasn't a huge fan of the OOC vs IC balance of 5E. I'm more considering where the maneuvers overlap and the basic melee because comparing Herald Nova to Berzerker Nova probably wont work but again I could be wrong. Ask my wife lol

 

[Conflict]

In first look Berserker looks strong. But actually (as you mentioned) Berserker is just for combat oriented. When party meets with different encounters like social, skilll based, stealth, lore, search etc it is completely useless.

And secondly, monk is not good match up for barbarian. Most people think monks are warriors but actually they are all-arounder, mobile-crowd controller. Barbarians always fights better than monks, no doubt. Doesnt matter subclasses or other differences.

Main problem is your campaign must be soo much combat oriented. Also if you use more than one encounter per day, exhaustion become a problem for the berserker.

 

[DerDoktory]

In first look Berserker looks strong. But actually (as you mentioned) Berserker is just for combat oriented. When party meets with different encounters like social, skilll based, stealth, lore, search etc it is completely useless.

And secondly, monk is not good match up for barbarian. Most people think monks are warriors but actually they are all-arounder, mobile-crowd controller. Barbarians always fights better than monks, no doubt. Doesnt matter subclasses or other differences.

Main problem is your campaign must be soo much combat oriented. Also if you use more than one encounter per day, exhaustion become a problem for the berserker.

We are playing the Zeitgeist Campaign, so if its too combat oriented, tell that to the owner of this website who created that campaign
Also i dont know where the exhaustion comes from? He is not playing the Path of the Berserker from the PHB but the Berserker from LevelUp and i havent read anything about exhaustion there.

 

[WarDriveWorley]

In first look Berserker looks strong. But actually (as you mentioned) Berserker is just for combat oriented. When party meets with different encounters like social, skilll based, stealth, lore, search etc it is completely useless.

Are you sure you're not thinking of the base PHB Berserker (Path of the Berserker Barbarian)? The A5E Berserker (renamed barbarian for A5E) gets a ton of non-combat oriented abilities. I mean at 3rd level they get Versatile Exploration and Warrior Born (which is all social abilities) and more at higher levels.

 

[MajorSarigar]

In our A5E game, our lvl 6 Berserker is a combat powerhouse. His damage output is good when he hits, and explodes when he crits, which is moderately often. Our other melee player is a dual-wielding Duelist Fighter. He's still new to the system, but his cumulative hits cause a lot of damage. I'm pretty confident that when he gets the rhythm of his maneuvers down a bit better, he'll equal or exceed the Berserker on average.

 

[Stalker0]

I can't speak on whether the berserker is too strong, just don't have enough experience with it. One thing I can say is, optimizers in LU are going to be more OP than those people in 5e. LU has a lot more switches to flip, aka food for Optimizers to push their characters. 5e reigns that in more (which some people like and some hate).

So if your used to the inherent balance of 5e with crunchy minded players, I think there are parts in LU that are going to innately look OP, because the players can milk the system more.

 

[Titus Divinitus]

I'm playing an Berserker in a "rapid advancement" campaign meant to test Level Up. Each week we have a series of encounters and then level, we are now 14th. Gaining a level every session doesn't offer a perfect vision into the system, it's a bit less organic, but it does let you explore the range.

I have found the Berserker to be very overpowered as compared to the other classes. The build is an Orc Berserker, Juggernaut with the Tempest archetype. As the crit range increases it starts to generate amazing damage on a per round basis, and with some strategic maneuver selections and feats along the way the power just escalates.

I will say the rogue in the group is definitely dishing similar or at times even greater individual attacks, but the Berserker simply gets more attacks per round that hit for massive damage. The crit range expanding is a significant factor, and when I'm finally at 17-20 for any attack it frees up my maneuver use even more.

Also, the damage mitigation is significant. High HP, high damage mitigation, HP recovery with maneuvers, and it starts to make it very very difficult to kill the Berserker. And now with higher level maneuvers that let me mitigate spell effects (such as hold person, which used to be a killer) make him even harder to take down.

He is definitely fun to play, that's for sure. And I know the GM has to think about him every week in a "how do I challenge the Berserker without creating an encounter that simply wipes out the non-Berserker characters." And that's definitely a problem... I can take a 70 or 80 HP hit, which for me turns into something less than 40 out of 150, but when the Bard or the Druid gets hit for 70 or 80, it ruins their day real quick. And I wear plate, with an assortment of magic items, so it's not like I'm offsetting mitigation by being easy to hit.

My standard turn is:
< I have a +1 polearm that also does 1d6 necrotic dmg, 1d10 if target is bloodied. Not too crazy at 14th >

Use Dangerous Strikes (0 exertion points from Surgical Combatant feat)
<Now crit on 17-20>

Attack with polearm, if I hit I do
1d10+5 + 1d10 Necrotic + 2d6 Lightning (Tempest), a crit is:

3d10+2D10+4D6+10 (extra weapon dmg as an orc)
I can then use my furious critical to activate elemental wrath for +2d6 more Lightning dmg on all attacks

So now my normal hit is:
1d10+5 + 1d10 Necrotic + 4d6 Lightning, as a crit:
3d10+2d10+8d6+10 for an average ~ 65-68
I can then use furious critical to hit the same target again, and if it crits, I can do it again
I have the mistaken opportunity maneuver, so if I miss, I can hit again now with advantage and bonus damage AND possibly stun
I can cleave

Rinse and repeat for my 2nd attack.

He's a bit of a nightmare and SUPER complex to run. More options and variations than any character I've ever played, to a crazy level. And I've played all the systems.

Is he fun? Heck yeah! Oh my, he's super fun. But is he balanced? Nope, the group has discussed it at length and he's simply not at the same level with the other characters. And you might say, but how is he out of combat? You're doing this quick advance, combat focused thing, I bet he does nothing out of combat.

He has a 14 Int, has the Magic Adept ancestry as an Orc, so he can cast spells and has a LOT of skills. He's not social, but he can investigate, intimidate (like crazy, since he uses Con as his stat to intimidate), he has arcane knowledge... not just meat. AND the Berserker gets some fun social features. I can walk into a bar and find a target just by being intimidating, I get discounts on buying items because I'm famous, if our bard misses a deception or persuasion roll (rare event let me tell you) I can give him a reroll by looking intimidating, and a number of other interesting quirks.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

1d10+5 + 1d10 Necrotic + 2d6 Lightning (Tempest), a crit is:

3d10+2D10+4D6+10 (extra weapon dmg as an orc)
I can then use my furious critical to activate elemental wrath for +2d6 more Lightning dmg on all attacks

So now my normal hit is:
1d10+5 + 1d10 Necrotic + 4d6 Lightning, as a crit:
3d10+2d10+8d6+10 for an average ~ 65-68

wouldn't it technically be (2d10+1d10+2d6+5)*2 on a crit without elemental wrath or (2d10+1d10+4d6+5)*2 on a crit with it since in a5e damage is doubled, not dice (and damage added on a crit is added before the damage is doubled)? and before you ask what that changes, it changes that average 65-68 (it's actually an average 65.5 by the way) to an average 71. the maximum damage also increases by 10. interestingly nothing actually changes if you assume the d10 from the orc is added after the damage is doubled, but again, it's been stated you add damage like that before the crit is doubled.

anyway, i mean, yeah, that sounds kinda gross. do you have a fighter or herald in that party? i'd be interested to see how they stack up to a similarly geared berserker.