Level Up (A5E) Thoughts on A5E classes from your table(s)?

[lichmaster]

Are we talking about making it so that they can only use maneuvers from one tradition at a time? So they'd have to switch traditions in the middle of a fight? Obviously this would be (like you said) a redesign of how maneuvers etc. work.

But just as a note, characters can swap out maneuvers like sorcerer etc. spells, when they gain new ones on level-ups. They can also potentially swap them out from the Training downtime activity.

I do see the appeal of letting the more niche maneuvers get some love- my instinct is to nerf/buff maneuvers so they all seem like viable choices, but general-use stuff like Stunning Assault does make it difficult... but I guess that's also the point of knowing a bunch of maneuvers, which the fighter does better than any of the other classes. Ofc that means that the other classes will probably just stick with whatever the best general-use maneuvers from their available traditions are... hm. Tough call.

None of that. The examples I made were specifically not about maneuvers, but about fighting styles and weapon properties.

I'd definitely not restrict them to only use maneuvers from one tradition at a time. Quite on the contrary, I think I'll experiment with removing the restriction of "known" fighting styles

 

[Distracted DM]

None of that. The examples I made were specifically not about maneuvers, but about fighting styles and weapon properties.

I'd definitely not restrict them to only use maneuvers from one tradition at a time. Quite on the contrary, I think I'll experiment with removing the restriction of "known" fighting styles

My bad. I'm misreading everything tonight!

 

[Anonymous3]

This. A lot of features that in o5E are a one and done choice, in LU can be "refocused" with a long rest.
I'm not yet sure about maneuver specialization, but I'd 100% allow it with the fighting style.

If we're talking about (partial) re-design, I think that switching styles mid combat would be an interesting and IMO very thematic feature for a fighter. Also, having them either "add" compatible weapon properties to a given weapon that doesn't naturally have them (eg sticking "reach" to a longsword), or improve somehow the properties a weapon has is also a good direction.
For example, Versatile could bump the dice by 1 category, removing the heavy property on some weapons (allowing small size fighters to use the weapon without issues, or even permitting dual-wielding), parrying could give a larger expertise dice or even work with ranged weapon attacks, defensive may allow 2 attacks with a bonus action or bumping AC by 2, etc.

If you put the two things together, you could have a very tactical gameplay where on a round to round basis you switch gear and fighting style

While I appreciate any increase in a fighters flexibility I wonder if this isn't too much.
From what I understand, you are suggesting that a fighter switch out someone who has dedicated their art of Archery to Great Weapons after a long rest. You could make it work but mechanically that seems quite strong.

The fighting styles distinguish a group of fighters into their "specialization". Maneuvers are similar to "combat spells" which are best selected with the specialization in mind but not so restrictive that you cannot branch out. Similar to wizard schools Sorcerer types and their spell selection.

 

[evildmguy]

While I appreciate any increase in a fighters flexibility I wonder if this isn't too much.
From what I understand, you are suggesting that a fighter switch out someone who has dedicated their art of Archery to Great Weapons after a long rest. You could make it work but mechanically that seems quite strong.

The fighting styles distinguish a group of fighters into their "specialization". Maneuvers are similar to "combat spells" which are best selected with the specialization in mind but not so restrictive that you cannot branch out. Similar to wizard schools and spell selection.

I understand not wanting to make it too complex. I took it differently. A fighter is already good with all weapons. They can pick up a bow or two handed sword and use them well. They are better at whichever one they have "prepared" for the day. I would hope that would mean bonuses to their prepared weapon but no penalties to other weapons, because penalties aren't fun.

At that point, it's where the line is drawn. Do they get weapon specializations at all times and are limited in maneuvers? Or if casters can swap spells on a short rest, maybe fighters can swap as well?

Of course, when is complexity to the point that another game system should be considered?

Thanks for the discussion!

 

[lichmaster]

While I appreciate any increase in a fighters flexibility I wonder if this isn't too much.
From what I understand, you are suggesting that a fighter switch out someone who has dedicated their art of Archery to Great Weapons after a long rest. You could make it work but mechanically that seems quite strong.

I don't see it different from the ranger being able to change their favorite terrain, or the herald changing what creatures it can perceive with divine sense, etc etc.
And I wouldn't see this as someone who dedicated their life to perfect anything (it's a first level feature!), but much closer to a combat stance (which could and should be changed as the fight evolves)

The fighting styles distinguish a group of fighters into their "specialization". Maneuvers are similar to "combat spells" which are best selected with the specialization in mind but not so restrictive that you cannot branch out. Similar to wizard schools and spell selection.

If you think about this, as it is it's much more restrictive than a wizard's spell selection, because wizards aren't restricted to one or a few schools (neither clerics, sorcerers or even warlocks are), but fighters and all melee combatants must choose upfront a couple of combat traditions and eventually they may be able to add a third.

 

[Anonymous3]

I don't see it different from the ranger being able to change their favorite terrain, or the herald changing what creatures it can perceive with divine sense, etc etc.
And I wouldn't see this as someone who dedicated their life to perfect anything (it's a first level feature!), but much closer to a combat stance (which could and should be changed as the fight evolves)

If you think about this, as it is it's much more restrictive than a wizard's spell selection, because wizards aren't restricted to one or a few schools (neither clerics, sorcerers or even warlocks are), but fighters and all melee combatants must choose upfront a couple of combat traditions and eventually they may be able to add a third.

Perhaps you're right. I am still stuck with inflexible "mundane" fighters and seeing all the changes in A5e have made me hesitant to "complain" that they are'nt getting enough. I see fighters drawing a lot of the inspiration from A5e sorcerers (spells are much fixed, similar to CMs) and warlocks (spell points, similar to exertion). Even they look inflexible compared to wizards which are the gold standard in progression and rewards.

I personally don't see fighting styles as equivalent to "ribbon"/exploration features of the Ranger (familiar terrain) and Herald (divine sense) - these features are cool but suffer in providing a comparable mechanical benefit. If I was ever given a choice of either of these three features I would take a fighting style every time.

Fighting style and cantrips are both features acquired at level 1 but I don't think that this dilutes the journey or effort required to achieve these feats. It just represents the beginning of a hero.

 

[Anonymous3]

I understand not wanting to make it too complex. I took it differently. A fighter is already good with all weapons. They can pick up a bow or two handed sword and use them well. They are better at whichever one they have "prepared" for the day. I would hope that would mean bonuses to their prepared weapon but no penalties to other weapons, because penalties aren't fun.

At that point, it's where the line is drawn. Do they get weapon specializations at all times and are limited in maneuvers? Or if casters can swap spells on a short rest, maybe fighters can swap as well?

Of course, when is complexity to the point that another game system should be considered?

Thanks for the discussion!

I think changing a Maneuver Specialization on a long rest is less problematic than a Fighting Style because the changes are smaller - bonus damage and reduced exertion (kinda makes "sense").