Best 9th level clerical spells for two evil clerics

[AuraSeer]

Thanks - I don't really see a flight speed in the Bigby's Hand spells. If said caster DD'd 100 feet away, does the hand have to take a round or two rounds or three to attack again?

The hand moves instantaneously, ignoring gravity. Note the description of interposing hand, which manages to interpose "regardless of how the opponent tries to get around it." This is made even clearer in the description of foreceful hand, which explicitly "has no speed limit," and will "instantly reposition itself" when necessary. The later hand spells are upgrades of IH and FH, and so share the same basic qualities.

That means if the target DDoors himself to another point within range, the hand will immediately vanish and reappear right next to him, all set to attack again on its next turn.

It's not one hundred percent clear what happens if the target leaves range. My interpretation is that it stlil interposes itself, moving to the limit of range as close as possible to the target. Obviously it can't attack from there, but since it's still in the way I allow it to grant a smaller cover bonus.

 

[NewJeffCT]

The hand moves instantaneously, ignoring gravity. Note the description of interposing hand, which manages to interpose "regardless of how the opponent tries to get around it." This is made even clearer in the description of foreceful hand, which explicitly "has no speed limit," and will "instantly reposition itself" when necessary. The later hand spells are upgrades of IH and FH, and so share the same basic qualities.

That means if the target DDoors himself to another point within range, the hand will immediately vanish and reappear right next to him, all set to attack again on its next turn.

It's not one hundred percent clear what happens if the target leaves range. My interpretation is that it stlil interposes itself, moving to the limit of range as close as possible to the target. Obviously it can't attack from there, but since it's still in the way I allow it to grant a smaller cover bonus.

Thanks - that certainly makes the spell a lot more appealing!

 

[NewJeffCT]

The hand moves instantaneously, ignoring gravity. Note the description of interposing hand, which manages to interpose "regardless of how the opponent tries to get around it." This is made even clearer in the description of foreceful hand, which explicitly "has no speed limit," and will "instantly reposition itself" when necessary. The later hand spells are upgrades of IH and FH, and so share the same basic qualities.

That means if the target DDoors himself to another point within range, the hand will immediately vanish and reappear right next to him, all set to attack again on its next turn.

It's not one hundred percent clear what happens if the target leaves range. My interpretation is that it stlil interposes itself, moving to the limit of range as close as possible to the target. Obviously it can't attack from there, but since it's still in the way I allow it to grant a smaller cover bonus.

In doing a bit more research, it says that the level 8 spell - Bigby's Clenched Fist - can only move 60 feet. So, I think it would not be able to follow somebody that moved 80-100 feet away.

So, I'm inclined not to use the hand spells, as it seems way underpowered to me?

For a level 18 cleric, which damage spell do you choose?
1) Crushing Hand - 2d6+12 to one opponent, though it can be continuous.

2) Level 8 Firestorm and do 18d6 fire damage to 36 ten foot cubes of shapeable area?

3) Level 7 Radiant Assault and do 15d6 untyped damage that also will daze or dazzle foes?

I think #2 or #3 seem superior in most situations.

 

[Shin Okada]

In doing a bit more research, it says that the level 8 spell - Bigby's Clenched Fist - can only move 60 feet. So, I think it would not be able to follow somebody that moved 80-100 feet away.

Actually, Bigby's Crushing Hand does not refer to Bigby's Clenched Fist. It refers only to Bigby's Interposing Hand, Grasping Hand & Forceful Hand. All of those 3 spells does not say the movement of the hand is restricted in some way, nor have fixed speed. So I say it can attack the target as long as the target is within the spell's Range.

Also, Bigby's Crushing Hand says "it can bull rush an opponent as Bigby's Forceful Hand does" and Bigby's Forceful Hand says "The hand always move with the opponent to push that target back the possible full distance allowed, and it has no speed limit." So it is clear that at least for this purpose, Bigby's Crushing Hand can move without no speed limit.

For a level 18 cleric, which damage spell do you choose?
1) Crushing Hand - 2d6+12 to one opponent, though it can be continuous.

2) Level 8 Firestorm and do 18d6 fire damage to 36 ten foot cubes of shapeable area?

3) Level 7 Radiant Assault and do 15d6 untyped damage that also will daze or dazzle foes?

I think #2 or #3 seem superior in most situations.

Crushing Hand is not a true damage spell. It is more like a hold spell without spell. And most effective against melee/ranged warriors who can do nothing while grappled. Spellcasters tend to teleport away from it. I like the spell a lot. But not for dealing damage.

Fire Storm is not bad. But there are two problems. It inflicts Fire damages, one of the most popular energy type which PCs tend to have some protection against. The second one is more serious problem. That has 1-round casting time.

For inflicting damage, Radiant Assault is one of my favorite. Untyped damage, will save, wonderful sub-effect. Your cleric can empower it if you want.

It is not a damage spell but Energy Drain is another good offensive spell. Especially against spellcasters.

7th-level spell Slime Wave (Spell Compendium) is another good offensive spell for a Cleric. 1d6 Con damage per round could be devastating.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Crushing Hand is not a true damage spell. It is more like a hold spell without spell. And most effective against melee/ranged warriors who can do nothing while grappled. Spellcasters tend to teleport away from it. I like the spell a lot. But not for dealing damage.

Fire Storm is not bad. But there are two problems. It inflicts Fire damages, one of the most popular energy type which PCs tend to have some protection against. The second one is more serious problem. That has 1-round casting time.

For inflicting damage, Radiant Assault is one of my favorite. Untyped damage, will save, wonderful sub-effect. Your cleric can empower it if you want.

It is not a damage spell but Energy Drain is another good offensive spell. Especially against spellcasters.

7th-level spell Slime Wave (Spell Compendium) is another good offensive spell for a Cleric. 1d6 Con damage per round could be devastating.

good suggestion - maybe have it grapple the party rogue or the elf fighter/paladin of freedom/champion of corellon instead of one of the tanks, who might be able to outgrapple it. Then, have a couple of rogues flank the grappled PC and get in sneak attack damage since you lose your Dex bonus if you're grappled.

 

[AuraSeer]

In doing a bit more research, it says that the level 8 spell - Bigby's Clenched Fist - can only move 60 feet. So, I think it would not be able to follow somebody that moved 80-100 feet away.

The spell says it can "move as far as 60 feet and attack in the same round." I read that as a limitation only on its attack. It can still move instantaneously like the other spells, because it shares their powers, but if it moves more than 60' in a given round it cannot also attack that round.

Also, Shin Okada is correct that the hands are not damage spells. They're for battlefield control. The grasping hand is a good way to shut down an enemy caster, sniper, or anyone else who's not great at grapple checks.

Shutdown can be superior to straight damage because it takes a character out of action immediately. If your uber-powerful damage storm doesn't kill the target right off, the other side still has full combat effectiveness, and you've just made yourself a big target. Then if you're unlucky, they can outdamage you, which means you'll die first. By contrast, taking one character out of action immediately cuts part of the enemy's attack abilities, and lets you concentrate your firepower on their remaining forces.

A grasped caster must either spend an attack spell to kill the hand, spend an escape spell to get loose, or else resign himself to casting only spells without somatic components. A grasped noncaster must either spend most of his turns repeatedly escaping the grapple, or else poke the hand to death with a light weapon.

Also note the hand spells have no saving throw, so they work even on that pesky cleric who saves against your other spells on a 2.

Crushing hand is really just grasping hand with an extra bonus. You still don't primarily cast it for the damage; it's just nice to have your battlefield control also chip away some hit points

 

[NewJeffCT]

good points AuraSeer... and, the PCs have been making almost all their saves against my control spells like Greater Command, Mass Hold Person, etc. Oddly, the party dwarf fighter made his saves vs those spells, then failed his Fort save against the horned devil's stunning effect from its spiked chain.