Best level combinations for min-max?

nameless

First Post
I feel dirty discussing min-max in public, but call me masochistic, it's just damn interesting to me. In my time with 3E, I've seen the same level combinations for min-maxing before taking a first level in a prestige class between levels 6 and 10. It seems to me that there are definite breaking points for multiclassing when grabbing all the abilities possible before a PrC, and losing the minimum BAB/Saves. Here's what I've noticed as far as useful levels:

Barbarian: 2 Levels is perfect. You get Fast Movement, a Rage, and Uncanny dodge. Skills list is good, so you can use class skill points to improve perception skills and possibly Wilderness Lore.

Bard: Not that great for multiclassing. 1 or 2 levels might work for the save increases, and music. The hit to BAB is rough though, and you still only have level 1 spells.

Cleric: Like Bard, 1 or 2 levels for the saves is good, but this doesn't mix too well with non-Cleric classes.

Druid: Never seen a multiclass Druid. All the good abilities come later, so it's not really worth the restrictions on weapons and armor to get the early ones.

Fighter: 2 or 4 levels is good. I mostly see 2 levels for the 2 bonus feats, but 4 levels gets you a Weapon Specialization. 3 levels is bad because you get nothing at 3 except your poor saves. I lean towards 2 because it'll never hit you with a multiclass penalty and the next two levels net you +1 to all saves and one feat... I can do better than that.

Monk: 1 or 4 levels is good. All the cool bonuses at level 1 are good, and by level 4 you've increased all your saves to +4, and got faster movement and 1d8 unarmed damage, plus some other minor abilities. Since you've already lost the 1 BAB at level 1, 2-4 are kind of a free ride.

Paladin: Bad for multiclassing. LG restriction, mainly. 1 level is good, if you can get a decent Cha. That save bonus is amazing. The class declines from there unless you're in it for the long haul.

Ranger: 1 level is best, unless you use Monte Cook's alt.ranger. Then 4 is good.

Rogue: 3 is the magic number. At 1, you gain +1d6 sneak attack but no BAB. At 2 evasion, but no offense. At 3, Uncanny Dodge and another sneak attack die. 4 is nothing, and at 5 you lose a 2nd BAB.

Sorceror: Best choice for arcane spellcaster multiclassing. You'll never have powerful spells, so you might as well get a lot per day. You also gain a BAB at the same time you gain a new spell level, so even numbers in Sorc are good. That said, I usually pick 2 or 4. Only drawback is the Cha dependency. That means you have to either pick a physical dump stat or Wisdom if you still want enough skills to play with.

Wizard: Not good for multiclassing. Numbers get all messed up with BAB, spell levels and saves.

My main goal with this is to minimize the levels with +0 BAB, and the levels with no class abilities. The main problem with this approach is low Will saves, but it's usually 2 points at the maximum.

On an aside, I hope Revised 3E keeps track of the fractional ability gains, and hurts the +2 to good saves at first level syndrome. It would make a world of difference when multiclassing in the non-warrior classes. Does anyone else notice little trends like this as far as low-level class balance?
 

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Draxus the Tainted said:
Check the Wizards.com forums. They have a whole message board dedicated to min/max play.

Sure... but I posted here because I was interested in EN World opinions *wink*.

I guess my real purpose was to see if I was overlooking something. Spellcaster classes have value in longer progression, since their bonuses don't add together. Non-spellcasters don't have these drawbacks. All the skill points, and other such numerical bonuses don't really care where they're coming from. A Fighter 3/Ranger 2 has identical numbers and feat choices to a Fighter 2/Ranger 3. With a little fiddling, he could be a Fighter 3/Ranger 1/Barbarian 1 and get an Fort save bonus plus a whole suite of Barbarian abilities. You just can't do that with the middle or low BAB classes, or with spellcasters.
 

The Paladin can give a powerful combo.

1st level paladin

all the way sorcerer.

Divine Grace plus very high charisma mens an almost immortal character at higher levels; when you reach certain level, the main factor to determine your survival rating is how high your saves are.
 


Cloaks of resistance +5 give you a chance of surviving. So does Divine Grace. But combine the two, and you have reliable defenses against magic.
 

The important thing to remember with bards is that the power of the song available doesn't depend on their bard level but on the ranks of perform. To me that makes it an excellent choice for someone that already has ranks in perform through another class.
 

Sounds like you've pretty much got all the Good Bits figured out... Agree with you on the top-heavy saves issue. One level of Monk essentially means you get Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes and Great Fortitude in one go, plus the unarmed combat goodies and WIS to AC. So if you wanna be the King of Saves, have one level of Monk, one Paladin and then go Sorcerer. As a sorcerer, you won't be wearing armor, so you get to keep the WIS-bonus to AC. Obviously, you'll wanna put your highest stat to CHA, then CON, DEX, WIS. Get a luckstone, a pale green prism iounstone and a Cloak of Resistance +5 for a total bonus of +7 to all saves. This isn't something I'd encourage, nor would I allow it if were your DM. But it would make for some incredible saves... :rolleyes:

One min/max-esque scheme I plan to try out with my next character is a 50/50 fighter/rogue archer. High DEX sits equally good with both the archer and rogue arch-types. The fighter levels will supply the feats I need. The rogue levels will supply skillpoints, sneak attacks, evasion and uncanny dodge. And at level 20 I will only have lost 3 points of BAB!

This is pretty much as far as I'm willing to stretch the min/max-ing... I just wouldn't feel comfortable taking the one ranger level because I wanted to play a two-weapon fighter or taking the one Barbarian level to get rage and better speed. Exploiting what is essentially weaknesses in the rules to get a more powerful character would make it less fun to play for me, kinda like cheating at Solitaire. But each to his own, of course! :)
 
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My Theory

Barbarian: You said it, 2 levels is the best. Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, and Rage 1/day, not to mention a boss hit die, good skills and good BAB. This is one of the best classes to take at 1st level, automatic 12 hp and good skill points, only problem is learning how to read later.

Fighter: 1,2, or 4 levels. It really doesnt matter what class or archtype you want to be, you can satisfy all of your "fighter-ness" with that. Since you shouldnt take more than 4 (unless you love feats, and love them early) dont take the fighter class at 1st level, there are better options.

Ranger: 1 or 5 levels. I usually try to get 5 levels because I like the flavor of favored enemies even if it isnt very powerful, you also have a spell or 2 by then, and a decent animal companion (2.5 D). Makes for a decent 1st level, good skill points, hp, and a favored enemy to boot.

Paladin: 1 level. I never play paladins because it restricts me too much. Sad but true. I dream of playing paladins, but it would be a royal pain to put up with the code. Paladins are for some people, just not me. Makes for a good 1st level, good skill points, hp, and various powers.

Bard: 2 levels. As someone said, as soon as you get perform only ranks matter for the songs. The second level is for light spells and the BAB, saves, etc. I dont play bards much either, but I had a Bardbarian once :) Isnt a very good 1st level char, hp are too small for the amount of skill points.

Rogue: Tough one. Ive dipped for 1 level then gone straight monk. Most often Ive dipped for 3 levels, most of the goodies and 2d6 sneak. I think optimum is probably 5, 6, or 7. 5 if you intend to get more uncanny dodge through a prc later, 6 if you want to not be flanked, 7 if you think 6 is just too close to another sneak die. Of course if youve gone 7 you might as well go for 10, get the special ability. This is a great class for 1st level, tons of skill points, low hp.

Monk: Another tough one. Its abilities are so spread that its hard to pinpoint a good level for stopping, especially if you use OA's optional rule that you can trade out Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows, and Improved Trip for a different "martial arts" feat. In that case, always at least 2 levels, sometimes 6 or 7 (you get a light healing ability). At that point its best to grab a prc that continues monk abilities. Makes for a great first level, decent hp, good skills.

Druid: Really hard to dip in and out. 5 levels is good for 3rd level spells and a wilshape use, with some cool nature abilities to boot. The restrictions also make it a poor multiclass choice.

Cleric: Good for dipping 1 or 3 levels, based on 1st or 2nd level spells. Going for 1 level is better, you get 2 domains (almost 2 feats worth of power), 1st level spell, good armor prof. Not that great to take at 1st level, poor skill points and decent hp.

Wizard: If I multiclass wizard its always 1 or 5. 1 gets you a weak familiar, the ability to scribe scrolls, 1st level spells, and thats about it. 5 levels and youve got 3rd level spells which have some of the best buffs, and an extra metamagic feat. You arent going to have many spells, so always specialize. Makes for one of the worst 1st level choices, as the hp are terrible as are the skill points.

Sorceror: I only see it worthwhile to dip in for 1 level. It takes 4 levels to get 2nd level spells, way too long for a multiclass char to be using level 1 spells. Imagine Lvl 4 Ftr, Lvl 3 Sorc. Youre 7th level but still slinging level 1 spells? Peh. You get the familiar like the wizard, but without the feat. Its a great class to ride all the way, but for multis its 1 or none. About as bad at 1st level as Wizard.

Granted, all of these comments assume you are not just going straight-classed, and they are all from my min/max side of the brain. I usually like classes with more skill points at 1st level because I enjoy taking loopy skills and find that I can't when I only get 2+int at 1st level. As far as hp, well we all like to live to 2nd, preferably without taking Toughness. I have played a multi-class wizard/rogue who took the first 3 wizard levels first, he had hide and move silently as cross-class skills and found himself using the skills almost as often as his magic, hence the mutliclassing.

Technik

Most Min/Maxed level 20 Ive ever made:

Mnk3/Rog3/Ftr4/Dul8 Drow with 25+ Int, Wis, and Dex. Weapon finesse on rapier, focus and spec on rapier. AC hog, tarrasque could only hit me on a 20 :)
 
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