Best way to beef up encounters: Higher CRs or larger numbers?

[moritheil]

When number of PCs are large, I prefer to increase the number of Monsters. While doubling the number of PCs raise effective party strength (level) by 2, that does not mean they can match something with CR with their level +6 and such. Higher level spells and special abilities may annihilate the PCs.

And If I were you also consider expanding the size of some rooms and corridors. Most sold modules are made 4 PCs in mind. So often, each rooms are too small for a fight between 7 PCs and equally numerous opponents.

Regarding higher ability scores for monsters. Read MM P.290 "Improving Monsters". Now ability scores are considered to be an important part of Monster's strength. Raising ability scores without giving appropriate NPC/PC class level will raise the monster's CR.

I agree with Shin and Coredump that increasing the number of monsters is the way to go. I run a campaign with 10-12 players, and at lower levels, 12 level 3s facing a CR 7 sorcerer, for example, spells near-certain doom for the party.

At high levels, I believe the same thing should be done, but for different reasons - sending in a single enemy, unless it has a ton of resists and immunities, will result in the enemy getting slaughtered in an amazingly short period of time. It is often better to send EL 15 worth of CR7 mindflayers, for example, than it is to send a single CR15 mindflayer sorcerer.

 

[S'mon]

My instinct would be to do neither; it doesn't sound like you have a problem. If battles start to get too tough for PCs later on, give them more XP and/or reduce the power of the ultimate monsters.

If you are determined to tweak, generally it's ok to add 50% to monsters numbers; so 4 monsters vs 4 PCs > 6 monsters vs 7 PCs. I heartily recommend *against* boosting the power of already powerful monsters (those of CR close to party level). However it's ok to boost 'mook' monsters - if the party is 8th level you can make the mooks 4th instead of 2nd without a problem, & it increases XP.

 

[buzz]

This is all fantastic advice, folks. Thanks!

BTW, I forgot to mention that I'm also doing two things:

1. Using Atlas' Dork20 cards
2. Using the average hit points variant from the DMG

The cards are a fun addition, though I think they tend to favor the players; I have so much I'm keeping track of that I often forget to use my cards. As for the HP rule, I've only applied it to the PCs. Maybe I can beef up the encouters by making sure the NPCs have at least avg. HP as well.

 

[apesamongus]

Add many smaller guys, promote 1 or 2 to minibosses. Add bards, martials, and other group boosting character types.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

The easiest way to alter the challenge level is to boost HP. Try out 75% of maximum, or the full 100% for particular tough monsters. You can tinker with the numbers, but that should provide greater challenge. If not, then you probably need to step it up a notch in terms of encounter CRs.

 

[Mokona]

The issue of a large group of PCs is the number of actions they get. One monster gets 1 move and 1 attack action or 1 full attack action. Single monsters have their CR set (poorly in my opinion) to handle four PCs (a Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, and Rogue).

If the party is seven members instead of four they have almost twice the number of "activations" or actions as they should for the CR that fits them. 7 PCs will outmaneuver monster groups designed to fight 4 PCs. Just the amount of flanking the PCs can pull off is extremely dangerous to the NPCs.

Either max out the HPs of the NPCs (for the least amount of DM effort) or increase the number of opponents.

 

[rowport]

This is all fantastic advice, folks. Thanks!

BTW, I forgot to mention that I'm also doing two things:

1. Using Atlas' Dork20 cards
2. Using the average hit points variant from the DMG

The cards are a fun addition, though I think they tend to favor the players; I have so much I'm keeping track of that I often forget to use my cards. As for the HP rule, I've only applied it to the PCs. Maybe I can beef up the encouters by making sure the NPCs have at least avg. HP as well.

Aha! I am one of the players in Buzz's campaign, and stumbled onto this thread accidentally, but with interest!

I do think that using the Dork20 cards- while wildly cool- has tweaked our effective power level pretty high. Even with the DM getting extra cards when we use them, we just have more chances for them to be effective- we have the advantage of numbers on our side as characters.

Personally I like the extra monsters idea the most. It keeps the 'flavor' of encounters the same, while it limits the risk of higher-CR single monsters overpowering. I do not really like the idea of just boosting the hit points of enemies; it will increase the challenge, but will not increase the effective encounter level for XP purposes- that way, encounters will get increasingly tough, but the party XP will lag farther and farther behind.

 

[buzz]

Aha! I am one of the players in Buzz's campaign, and stumbled onto this thread accidentally, but with interest!

It's decided, then. Your PC will be the first to die.

 

[gabrion]

My vote is for more monsters! Most people have gone over the details already, but let me add my opinion.

As pointed out, raising CrRof the encounters through tougher monsters can result in bad things (like death) for the PCs. However, some people have recommended not changing the encounters (other than adding HP or giving the monsters a terrain advantage, etc), but I wonder if they see the consequences of this. If you run the module with the same number of creatures and just make them a little harder to kill without actully changing their numbers or the CR of the encounter, your PCs will eventually fall behind the monsters anyway, and you will be left with the problem of higher CR monsters killing your PCs.

The module is created to advance the characters at a certain rate and unless you give extra XP for RPing (and lots of it), you will need to introduce more enemies in order to keep the players on pace with the game. More monsters!!!

 

[Nyarlathotep]

As mentioned above, don't boost numbers or CR... instead boost HP to max and then back it off if needed.

Remember you can change Stats without chainging CR (and who says a your monsters can't have 18's in everything*!

This actually isn't true... All monsters (with a few exceptions) in the MM have average stats (11,11,11,10,10,10). If you give them a non-elite attribute array (13,12,11,10,?,? - I can't remember the exact breakdown) there is no CR Adjustment. If you give them the elite attribute array (15,14,13,12,10,8) they are +1 CR unless they are a monster with class levels. So boosting to 18's should be at least +1 CR....