Best way to beef up encounters: Higher CRs or larger numbers?

[Land Outcast]

Hey, 'bout not being able to bump Quth-maren...
You have no need to pay heed to what is on the stat block

Any monster can be advanced the way you want to,
Is it intelligent?: class levels (regardless of what the stats say)

OR

HD advancement (regardless of what the stats say)

(I know this is not in house rules, but I had to say it)

 

[Coredump]

Don't just add monsters, bump the HP also.

Assuming 12,12,12,12,11,11,11 that is almost the same as a group of 4 at lvl 14. So an ECL 15 shouldn't be that big of a deal.

And to bump up the encounter, you have to watch the CR of the bad guys. If there are a lot of CR 8-10, then make those 10-12. But if there are CR 13-15, add more bad guys.

Just adding lots of weak opponents may not make much of a threat, but making teh BBEG a lot higher, will lead to one-shot kills.

 

[buzz]

Hey, 'bout not being able to bump Quth-maren...
You have no need to pay heed to what is on the stat block

True, but I'm trying to work within the scope of the system, not outside of it.

 

[buzz]

Assuming 12,12,12,12,11,11,11 that is almost the same as a group of 4 at lvl 14. So an ECL 15 shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Actually, all the PCs were level 10. The Encounter Calculator at d20srd.org says that's an ECL 11.6 party level.

And to bump up the encounter, you have to watch the CR of the bad guys. If there are a lot of CR 8-10, then make those 10-12. But if there are CR 13-15, add more bad guys.

So, IYO, some increase of CRs will have to happen, at least for weaker foes. Adding more CR7 sentries isn't going to cut it.

 

[cmanos]

be very careful about upping your CR's. Played an online game about a year back. DM wanted a very rough encounter for the showdown with the BBEG.

Ghast with 5 levels of Sorcerer......

against 2 2nd level PC's.....

 

[Coredump]

Exactly. Adding more 'mooks' isn't much of a threat. Low level stuff you can bump up, the danger is bumping up the high level stuff.

My group was attacking a Guardian Familiar (starts as 1HD, then 2, then 3....) They were 8 lvl 2 characters. Even the 5,6,7 HD versions were not that difficult to kill, except that it would take a round or two, and each round would mean a PC goes down...

So I would say, up the CR, number, and HP of the low level stuff. Up the number and HP of the high level stuff.
And, IMO, don't be afraid to fudge some stuff for the sake of enjoyment. I have no problem adding some HP during the encounter, if I feel I misjudged when setting it up.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

IME, it's not enough to add some more monsters. Add a different type, one that synergizes with the original monsters.

(Eg cloakers and a mimic, or grimlocks and mind flayers [brute force and Will saves, heh heh heh], etc)

 

[Saeviomagy]

RAW says spellcasters must have 8hrs of sleep to regain their spent spell slots. Sooooo.. send a couple of sling equipped stealth goblins (or whatever) to whack a few sleeping pc's. Won't hurt them much.. but it can wake them up.

Each interruption to sleep merely adds one hour to the time necessary. It doesn't stop them from regaining spells.

Next - My recommendation is to increase numbers. More foes means a fight that lasts longer.

HOWEVER - it is a bad idea to add more foes if those foes have the capability to affect the entire party. Going from 1 fighter -> 5 fighters makes a much tougher fight. Going from 1 sorceror with fireball -> 5 sorcerors with fireball makes for a TPK. Same applies to breath weapons, damaging auras, gaze attacks etc.

 

[Thundering_Dragon]

be very careful about upping your CR's. Played an online game about a year back. DM wanted a very rough encounter for the showdown with the BBEG.

Ghast with 5 levels of Sorcerer......

against 2 2nd level PC's.....

That was either a very inexperienced DM or one who flat out wanted the PCs to die.

As for the topic at hand... Adding more, weak monsters is not going to challenge the PCs, since all it does is give more targets for the Fireball/Great Cleave to kill. Adding more CRs is a risky proposition since, as has been mentioned, certain higher level abilities and spells can potentially wipe out one or more PCs in an instant.

Therefore, I agree with those who have recommended increasing hitpoints and ability scores. Elite arrays are an excellent way to even the field of battle without making it too difficult for the PCs. It also allows you to use more devious and intelligent tactics (a must against large parties) with a clear mind, since the creatures they are fighting against have the INT and WIS scores to justify it.

 

[Keepiru]

.

I'm running a campaign with a small group of characters avg. level 7. So far they have pounded every "major" encounter they've come across. So I started adjusting the environment to make things a more difficult. They ended up having a far more difficult time getting the group past a waterfall (2 near drownings) than they did with 2 ettercaps, 1 harpoon spider, and 2 large spiders. Now, if I had put 2 or 3 low level goblins at the top of the waterfall with ranged weapons I probably would have killed 1 or 2 people since they would have been tied up with the attackers long enough for the others in the water to drown.

For the spiders, originally I planned the encounter with just 1 harpoon spider and 1 ettercap, but decided to try a bigger challenge. The ettercaps stayed up in the ceiling just out of darkvision range and threw their nets to hold people down while the harpoon spider climbed down to harpoon a PC and reel him back into the ceiling. They took out all the critters pretty easily since the warlock had a spider climb evocation that made him immune to the webs.

After that I started throwing low CR creatures at the party with unique abilities. A choker (MM1) can be pretty tricky. I almost killed the level 6 warlock who wandered off on his own. I've used a couple darkmantles too because their Darkness spell foils darkvision and leads to chaos and mayhem!

Later on they encountered an Avalancher(MM3) who turned the ground under them to mud. They all sank in and it then caused an avalanche, burying 1 of them. Sadly some of them made it out of the mud and killed the avalancher before it could escape.

Throw in some creatures that can use hit and run tactics. My 2 phase spiders did major damage by free-action shifting to the prime, taking 1 bite attack+poison, then using their move action to shift back out. They would then wait a while for the secondary con damage to kick in, then attack again. Eventually the party burned their nest+eggs, so the spiders popped out and fought to the death.

My players can pretty much recognize any Monster Manual creature I throw at them, and though they try not to let it affect their gaming decisions, they already know what type of attacks to expect. I've started putting templates on my creatures to make them a bit spicier. "Wait, the Runehound has 2 tentacles growing out of it too??" "Wait, the troll is poisonous and SMART??" "Look out, a rabbit! Kill it to be safe!"

So far these changes have worked out well. Several near deaths, no real deaths (which is good as we lack anyone that can raise dead), and plenty of surprises.

To sum up - Tactics > more monsters > higher CR.