Big Changes in ICv2's RPG Industry Charts, as Pathfinder Drops Off Before 2E's Release!

ICv2 has just released its Fall 2018 industry chart of the top selling hobby channel roleplaying games, and for the first time since the game launched, Pathfinder - no doubt affected by the impending release of Pathfinder 2E - is not in the top five!

Pathfinder01.jpg




1Dungeons & DragonsWotC
2Legend of the Five RingsFFG
3Star Wars RPGFFG
4StarfinderPaizo
5VampireWhite Wolf


Pathfinder has been in the top 5 since it launched in 2009. Traditionally, it holds the #2 spot, just after D&D, although for three years from Spring 2011 to Summer 2014 it knocked D&D off its perch and claimed the top position. Since then, it's pretty much been D&D - Pathfinder - Star Wars, with the fourth and fifth positions battled over by the latest hotness.​

D&D dropped off the chart back in Spring 2014, just before D&D 5E launched. With Pathfinder 2 coming in August, this looks like the same effect.

In Pathfinder's absence, Fantasy Flight Games makes a strong showing with Legend of the Five Rings and Star Wars, and White Wolf's Vampire - despite the controversy, sneaks in at #5.
 
Russ Morrissey

Comments

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
What really would be surprising would be PF not appearing on the list after PF 2's release.
 

MockingBird

Explorer
Predicting PF 2e's performance has been iffy. It only seems to be the extreme of really bad to really good. Curious to all the 4e comparisons as well. I'm interested to see how well it does or doesnt do and how Paizo will adapt.
 

Ghost2020

Explorer
PF2e should be extremely interesting. I fear that it will be a) not enough change for those that want more changed, or b) they did not change enough, or c) all of the above.

With something like this line, people want change, but not too much deviation from the core. If Starfinder is a sneak peak at the changes I'm in the 'not enough' camp.

I'm still hoping that Paizo opens up a 5e conversion department. I'd buy their APs and settings in 5th ed without blinking. I'm also not holding my breath for this one.
 

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
PF2e should be extremely interesting. I fear that it will be a) not enough change for those that want more changed, or b) they did not change enough, or c) all of the above.

With something like this line, people want change, but not too much deviation from the core. If Starfinder is a sneak peak at the changes I'm in the 'not enough' camp.

I'm still hoping that Paizo opens up a 5e conversion department. I'd buy their APs and settings in 5th ed without blinking. I'm also not holding my breath for this one.
They can't change too much. PF pas build on its backward compatibility with 3.5. Straying too far away from PF might turn off the base.
 

mykediemart

Villager
PF2e should be extremely interesting. I fear that it will be a) not enough change for those that want more changed, or b) they did not change enough, or c) all of the above.

With something like this line, people want change, but not too much deviation from the core. If Starfinder is a sneak peak at the changes I'm in the 'not enough' camp.

I'm still hoping that Paizo opens up a 5e conversion department. I'd buy their APs and settings in 5th ed without blinking. I'm also not holding my breath for this one.
I didn't really play much pathfinder (friends and my adult son did) but I heard a lot about it. I have purchased the hard back Adventure paths and a few modules and i think their production quality is top notch. I have even dabble now into their setting (I didnt play PF in their setting) . I have even watched a few of their twitch broadcasts (replayed on youtube) on lore.

TLDR: Paizo make top notch stuff, if they made duel stat books I'd be buying them.
 

Azgulor

Adventurer
They can't change too much. PF pas build on its backward compatibility with 3.5. Straying too far away from PF might turn off the base.
I'm part of the PF1 base. Actually, I was part of the 'PF1 Forever' Brigade. I'm anxiously awaiting PF2 as the changes they are looking to implement look as though they're reworking fundamental aspects of the d20 engine for the better. Given that PF2 appears to be easier to run and promises easy conversion of PF1 material (a PF1 module was converted on the fly during a podcast), backwards compatibility doesn't appear to be much of an issue.

In the event someone was holding on to PF1 as a way to use 3.5 material, they were likely never going to switch to PF2. When PF1 was a year or two old, backwards compatibility was a big deal. PF1 is 10 years old and Paizo has already developed material for that system that improved upon or replaced 3.x versions.
 

jmucchiello

Adventurer
They can't change too much. PF pas build on its backward compatibility with 3.5. Straying too far away from PF might turn off the base.
The playtest strayed quite a distance from 3.5. (I'm probably one of those folks though who will feel it isn't far enough of a change.)
 

Staffan

Adventurer
Predicting PF 2e's performance has been iffy. It only seems to be the extreme of really bad to really good. Curious to all the 4e comparisons as well. I'm interested to see how well it does or doesnt do and how Paizo will adapt.
I would be immensely surprised if PF2 does not sell like hotcakes at first. People will be curious and want to try it out. What remains to be seen is how well it will still be selling a quarter or two or four down the road.
 
The playtest strayed quite a distance from 3.5. (I'm probably one of those folks though who will feel it isn't far enough of a change.)

I ran a one-shot crossover of my PF1 and PFPlaytest characters and it was great fun. The creatures/core resolution mechanic were close enough that everything flowed well enough. I imagine pf2e will allow for this possibility as well.

Jason Buhlman’s comments in interviews leave me optimistic as well.

Lost Muse Games
 

TrippyHippy

Adventurer
Vampire's ranking gives some light as to why Modiphius chose to continue the license after the old White Wolf management dissolved. Regardless of controversy and dissent, it was actually selling OK. For Modiphius it was their biggest seller.

The rest of the list shows how the 'big three' (WotC, Paizo and FFG) have solidified in recent years.

I think its mostly due to distribution chanels. Most local game stores I know only stock games by these companies. It's only a few specialists that stock anything else.

With regards to Paizo, of course we can expect a spike when the new edition comes out. However, I wonder whether their own market is quite conservative in it's tastes - it was based on D&D 3.5 after all, instead of 'moving on' to later D&D editions. As with other companies, new editions tend to get released when current sales are waning a bit, or a new cycle is required. I'm not a follower of the game, admittedly, but I wouldn't be surprised if its decade long position as no1 challenger to D&D may be coming to an end. Time will tell.
 
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Zarithar

Explorer
Unpopular opinion: Paizo should release a 5e version of Golarion and some of the associated APs. None of the people in the three gaming groups I am a part of are even remotely interested in PF2, and yes... several of us did play PF extensively for a couple of years. As others have said, Golarion is a great fantasy setting. Paizo was once a 3rd party publisher for D&D... why can't they return to that in some fashion?
 

dwayne

Explorer
It would be ok but i have seen this from back at the start of D&D add more and revise oh wait lets re release all the books again and make it annoying to convert so everyone would buy the new ones. D&D started this back with 2nd edition, then 3, 3.5 then crashed it with 4th now with 5th which is so watered down its pathetic from what it was. So the standard is change some core mechanics and re release it as a new updated version resale all to the same people and after a few years or less in some cases do it all over again. Sorry this boy bought into the 2nd and have vast amounts of it, did again for 3rd and stopped at 3.5, I got the basic books for 5th but that's where i draw the line. But go ahead and dish out the money for a product that will be up dated in a few more years, they live off your money. Really all you need is the basic alterations to convert the old stuff or a good imagination and a feel for the rules which is what i use, pathfinder is not my thing but good luckj to all who dumped all the money into the cool books and stuff that is now going to be altered and revised just like the people at D&D did to you.
 

M.T. Black

Explorer
Unpopular opinion: Paizo should release a 5e version of Golarion and some of the associated APs. None of the people in the three gaming groups I am a part of are even remotely interested in PF2, and yes... several of us did play PF extensively for a couple of years. As others have said, Golarion is a great fantasy setting. Paizo was once a 3rd party publisher for D&D... why can't they return to that in some fashion?
I would never have guessed that Monte Cook would publish a 5e version of Numenera, and that is happening now (kinda). I wouldn't discount Paizo doing a 5e Golarion one day - it will really depend on how PF2 sells.
 

CapnZapp

Hero
Am I the only one or are there more people that wish Paizo would completely scrap the current development team of PF2 and announce that they're starting over fresh, with a completely new year of playtest this fall (and, yes, postponing the launch of the finished game by one year)? A game that drops the idea of yet another brand new system? A game that actually learns from the successes and failures of 5E? A development team that understands that with 5E the market no longer want linear fighters quadratic wizards and other wild imbalances? A game that chooses to be compatible-ish, not with PF1 but with 5E. A game that doesn't delude itself into believing there's space for a large D&D-like player with a product wholly incompatible with everything? A game that instead taps into the 5E audience looking for a more complex "client-side" game (i.e. what the players percieve) without necessarily changing the server-side game (i.e. what the DM percieve)?
 

Zarithar

Explorer
I would never have guessed that Monte Cook would publish a 5e version of Numenera, and that is happening now (kinda). I wouldn't discount Paizo doing a 5e Golarion one day - it will really depend on how PF2 sells.
Numenera 5e will be an insta-back for me when it hits KS!
 

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