Binary Success vs Multiple Levels of Success

Reynard

aka Ian Eller
Supporter
A friend of mine shared this blog post with me and I though it would make for an interesting topic here.

I don't really buy the core of the argument that all you have to do to make binary results interesting is to add more rolls. That makes things tedious. In the drive, shoot and resist psychic attack example, the order of those things will matter.

Note that I am not saying that "partial successes" are easy to come up with on the fly. It can be a real pain depending on the task -- but that is why most PbtA and FitD games put some of that work on the players, too.

What works for me with games like D&D is instead of setting DCs for binary results, is I know the DC scale (8-12-16-20-24) well enough to interpret the results of a check on the fly. The specific situation will determine whether that 8 means "success at a cost" or "limited success" or what.

What do you think? Do you prefer binary success or multiple levels of success? Why? Do you agree with the author's idea that you can make binary success more interesting by making checks more complex?
 
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What works for me with games like D&D is instead of setting DCs for binary results, is I know the DC scale (8-12-16-20-24) well enough to interpret the results of a check on the fly. The specific situation will determine whether that 8 means "success at a cost" or "limited success" or what.

What do you think? Do you prefer binary success or multiple levels of success? Why? Do you agree with the author's idea that you can make binary success more interesting by making checks more complex?

On the idea of multiple tiers of results...
I think extra scales of success or failure are extra steps in just doing what PBTA has been showing people how to do all along.

So you need a 10 to succeed at a Persuade check?

1 = fumble, bad things happen
5= you didnt do it, but things are not ruined for ya
8= you kinda did it, but only in a limited way
10 = you did it, but only in a basic way
15= you did it and you get a little extra
20= you succeeded in the best way possible and get bonus results that are good too

like... sheesh.... what a overly extra tedious way of just doing =
10+ you did it as best as can be done within the fiction
9- you did it with some complications
1 the GM gets to decide based on the theme and plot, and here is a quick ref guide.

The extra granularity of the first set in fact adds nothing. You can fold 5, 8, together for the same effect based on the context of the roll. you can fold 10 and 15 together because they are the same thing. 20 can be reserved for character special abilities or just folded onto 10 because at the end of the day, you still just "did it".... move on to the next fun bit already...

And if you want, you can use a PBTA style 'themed suggested results set' for success with complications if you need a little creative juice. You got success with complications to Persuade the guy = ok, well they go along with it but ... pick one
  • you have to pay them extra
  • you owe them a favor
  • it makes someone else an enemy of you
  • it adds danger to the scene
  • etc etc...

That is just as quick as any binary roll, and it helps get the mind thinking of what the risks were in the first place.
And it gives the GM what they really want deep down = challenges and drama for the players to engage with.
Even better it was the roll that made the result = the GM isnt the enemy to outthink, they are the person who helps bring these results to like in big and cool way


.................
On the article....
The author of the article is laughably wrong on this = "Mixed successes provide a framework for an assumed situation, which might not fit what’s actually going on"
its utter nonsensical gibberish. assumed situation where mixed success does not fit?

Here is the real nitty gritty kitty litter truth = this is really exposing bad GM habits.... ones where the GM has no clue what the stakes are, so its just easy for them to say "you fail, nothing happens". or "I don't really know if I want you to succeed here, so uh... here is a DC, if you make it then fine, you do it..." = yuck!

If the assumed situation has some chance of failure, then failure can be quite a few things... like... a lot of possibilities...

And a "success" is absolutely part of a failure state. (i.e. yes, you got the reactor working, its online and everything has power, but its overloading, so in 1 hour it will blow up)

Even in "fail" too... (i.e. You didn't get the reactor online your hack failed, but since the power is out the enemy can't open the maglock doors, so you are safe... for now...)

Mixed success always makes sense. And if it doesn't, its a bad GM making someone roll when they should not have been rolling at all. That, is the death of fun and a waste of time.



.......................

On Pass/Fail and binary results...
Are trash.
Ok, that's too harsh. But hear me out. "I roll to hit the ork, I miss. nothing happens." its binary. You hit or you don't hit. Nothing interesting happened when I missed (even if the interesting thing as the ork getting a one-up on me).

This also makes gaming worse for success. "I roll to persuade the king to kill himself." I succeed, he does. its binary. There is no reason for this, there is no build up. In a single roll we have given up what would have been a interesting dialog of why, and to what end, and what emotions or reasons were involved.

Binary pass fail is junk because it requires a GM to be a gatekeeper of fun. They, the person who is the GM, have to say "No you can't just persuade them to to that". That is a person telling another person what they can try in a game and what they cant. And its not always agreed upon, there are a thousand posts on this very forum over this exact thing...





................

IMHO, it is proven day after day, everyone (deep down in truth) wants to play PBTA, its what everyone really enjoys... we are all tired of pass fail and extra layers of nothing, and we all want rolls to be interesting, even failed ones. And PBTA serves as a good test of bad habits and exposes unfun rulings that too many people have become used to suffering through.

There are so so so many blogs, posts, podcasts, even critical role talks = of people saying how to make failed rolls more interesting, narrate things happening, getting players to not spend hours arguing over how to out think the GM, players getting bad rolls and it removing them from play, GMs not handling missed perception checks leading to failed plots, tedious combat of 45 minutes of waiting for your turn to miss... the list goes on and is really obvious


Funny thing is... these gripes, the heartaches... all for pass fail systems (most of which are really wargames in drag). None of these things are breaking the backs of PBTA games, no such wealth of players who fully embrace and play mostly only PBTA talk of of untenable roll results or plays having to do nothing from bad rolls, PBTA isn't missing out on plots or suffering through a GMs guessing game of clue locations...

................

I used to not get PBTA. I thought it was "training wheels for roleplay" or some such. I thought the moves were limiting to players and the GM had no clue what to run or do... I was wrong.

I was trying to force my bad habits and my overly controlling GM habits into a game that solved all that and more.

Now, when I run PBTA, as a GM I work less, and get more fun out of my plots, my players don't see me as a villain to fight, and as a player I get to say the thing I wanted to do, do it, and see how much fun snowballs from the successes and the complications both. Players embrace both harm and risk more, and that lets me add to the stakes and story.
 

Huh. Using a mixed outcome to tell mixed outcome proponents they're wrong? That's a logic puzzle. I'm pretty happy with my "ask the player what happened" system for making binary rolls more interesting.
 



Whoa whoa whoa. I don't think this is it.
You are right.

I am overstating for sure. I am mostly responding to the sheer amount, every day at least 10 videos and a few blog posts of someone having issues with roleplay that clearly stem from obvious bad mechanics that for some reason - when they ask for a fix, and some game system like pbta offers it - they go 'naw, ill go back to the problem system instead'... :P

I want gaming to be fun, to be all the things we could never do in videogames, to be our fav shows and movies. And it seems odd that people still look to a 50 year old rules set that gets tons of complaints... heck, how many decades went by before DnD became a dice pool system and added a very common roll now of 'Advantage'. We all knew the single D20 roll was painful and unfun.. and the Advantage rule helped a lot! So why can't there be more new fun rules?

I'm not trying to be mean, I am only saying "we have come a long way, there are things that make it easier or more fun for all" :D
 

Two brief points:

While the blog mentions the advantages of using multiple rolls, it overlooks at how the math changes to be successful, each time a player must roll an additional check.

The Partial Success, which PbtA is constructed around, also functions as a framing tool. By having to consider No, but & Yes, and, at the time one rolls, this encourages the player and table runner to think about what different elements are involved in the fiction and how they might intersect, interact or relate.

A Pass/Fail check tends to narrow one's focus on the action undertaken and its immediate result. Were you successful or not?
 

It seems only skills are multiple levels of success. Combat you hit or miss and saves are for nothing or half damage mostly. The exploration and social pillars get opposed by the DM wanting to push information to the players vs the players not getting the clues or looking in the right places, so the DM needs to get it to them.

Instead of you fail and the players need to figure out something else if we use the binary pass/fail system. When talking to a NPC it is easy to see that he could be partially swayed or mostly swayed or totally in your pocket. But the PCs cannot be swayed unless they want to.
 

I liked Earthdawn because it has success levels, but it is also a dice pool system where your Step is also the likely outcome combined with exploding dice that can result in infinite values (with a 1/infinity chance of occurrence, which isn't quite zero..., but a 1/1000 chance on a d6 is like a 23)

But d&d also does have some levels. Combat has success, fail, critical. Social checks have friendly/indifferent/ hostile with poor, middling, and positive outcomes possible.
 


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