[Biotech] Problem with franks

[Psyckosama]

I have some issues with the Enforcer and Sniper Frank subtypes.

They give +2 Str or +2 Dex with low light vision in excange for -2 Int and -2 Chr. This is hardly a fair trade.

Low Light vision is NOT worth two stat points. anyone care to think of an explination?

Personally I'm going to change the bonus to +4 or drop on of the stat modifiers.

 

[takyris]

The same explanation as that given for half-orcs? The enforcer and sniper get abilities that directly assist their chosen professions. For a combat-oriented character, -2 to 2 stats in exchange for +2 to Strength is more than fair. The moreaus (that I can think of offhand) usually go with a bonus to one physical stat and a penalty to another physical stat -- because physical stats are equivalent across the board, for the most part. Same with mental stats -- you get +2 Cha/-2 Int.

If someone gets a bonus to a physical skill, they need to get a penalty to more than one mental skill, OR a penalty in equal amount on another physical skill. Or at least, they do if you want them to be even remotely balanced as characters.


The game balance is there for a reason. You're welcome to change it in your game, and I'm sure you won't be the only one, but why not trust all the nice folks who did the playtesting? If you're going to change it, change it in an accepted form. Make it +2 Str, -2 Dex, or +2 Dex, -2 Con.

-Tacky

 

[Psyckosama]

The same explanation as that given for half-orcs? The enforcer and sniper get abilities that directly assist their chosen professions. For a combat-oriented character, -2 to 2 stats in exchange for +2 to Strength is more than fair. The moreaus (that I can think of offhand) usually go with a bonus to one physical stat and a penalty to another physical stat -- because physical stats are equivalent across the board, for the most part. Same with mental stats -- you get +2 Cha/-2 Int.

If someone gets a bonus to a physical skill, they need to get a penalty to more than one mental skill, OR a penalty in equal amount on another physical skill. Or at least, they do if you want them to be even remotely balanced as characters.


The game balance is there for a reason. You're welcome to change it in your game, and I'm sure you won't be the only one, but why not trust all the nice folks who did the playtesting? If you're going to change it, change it in an accepted form. Make it +2 Str, -2 Dex, or +2 Dex, -2 Con.

Is the the same game ballance that give the Pratorian Frank minuses to the exact sane stats and a +4 to Con?

Sorry, but IMHO that argument holds little water.

 

[takyris]

Well, IMHO, it does hold water. Having not seen the article, I'm going by the limited information you described.

What's up with the Pratorian Franks? Describe them a bit more thoroughly than "the exact same stats", when we've discussed several different levels of stats, and there are other advantages and disadvantages that we haven't brought up -- because I haven't seen the article, and because you seem to want not so much an actual discussion as a carte blanche to power up your combat characters.

-Tacky

 

[Psyckosama]

Well, IMHO, it does hold water. Having not seen the article, I'm going by the limited information you described.

What's up with the Pratorian Franks? Describe them a bit more thoroughly than "the exact same stats", when we've discussed several different levels of stats, and there are other advantages and disadvantages that we haven't brought up -- because I haven't seen the article, and because you seem to want not so much an actual discussion as a carte blanche to power up your combat characters.

-Tacky

I'm not trying to "power up my combat characters". I'm jsut pointing out what I see as an error. As to why I'm beating around the bush, this setting is not open sorce and I'm trying not to break any rules.

fine, I'll brake them.

Enforcer: +2 Str, -2 Cha, -2 Int, Nightvision.
Sniper: +2 Dex, -2 Cha, -2 Int, Nightvision.
Enforcer: +4 Con, -2 Cha, -2 Int

Numbers wise this doesn't ballance IMHO. They are bascially charging you 2 stat points for night vision which the Hunter subtype (+2 Wis, -2 Cha) also gets but without spending 2 entire stat points on it.

IMHO is doesn't add up. It is not ballanced

 

[Falanor]

Firstly, pick up your DMG. In it are descriptions of how to create your own race. They tell you that for a +2 to Str, Dex, or Con you should generally recieve a -2 to two of the mental stats or a -2 to a physical stat. In actuallity the only Franks that don't balance with the others are the Eggs (they only modify two mental stats in a balanced way and get nothing else) and Honeytraps (whom get the same balance as the Eggs). The Praetorian recieves a extra boost to Con above the balance and the Sniper and Enforcers both get Low Light Vision (which you may not think as powerful, but in D20 Modern not having to purchase your own friggin Nightvision goggles is pretty damn nice).

 

[Psyckosama]

Firstly, pick up your DMG. In it are descriptions of how to create your own race. They tell you that for a +2 to Str, Dex, or Con you should generally recieve a -2 to two of the mental stats or a -2 to a physical stat. In actuallity the only Franks that don't balance with the others are the Eggs (they only modify two mental stats in a balanced way and get nothing else) and Honeytraps (whom get the same balance as the Eggs). The Praetorian recieves a extra boost to Con above the balance and the Sniper and Enforcers both get Low Light Vision (which you may not think as powerful, but in D20 Modern not having to purchase your own friggin Nightvision goggles is pretty damn nice).

This isn't D&D. D&D is useally hack and slash. Social abilities are not as important. In d20 modern you're probelly going to be useing your noncombat abilities far more then your weaponry.

 

[takyris]

D&D might be hack & slash in YOUR campaign. Thank you for not assuming that it's the same in everyone else's campaigns.

There's certainly combat in my campaign, but there are virtually no "random encounters." I only hit the party with things that actually make sense, and the party would much rather advance the plot than whack on some random monster I picked from the manual.

Forget that for a moment, though. You're essentially making the argument that because YOU think that d20 Modern will have less combat, bonuses to physical abilities shouldn't be as "expensive" (in terms of the penalties used to balance them).

I don't have a TON of d20 Modern experience under my belt yet, but from what I've seen, the reason that there's less combat is because combat is freakin' dangerous. A +4 to your Con means that you can take four more points of damage without having to make a massive damage check -- and when you DO make that check, you get a +2 on your save. Combats in this system are fast and deadly and really rather unpleasant for anyone but the well-trained or the crazy.

You really seem to have issues with one of the big concepts of the whole d20 system -- focus is expensive. It's expensive in Point Buy, where going from 17 to 18 costs more than going from 11 to 12. It's expensive in multiclassing, where the best abilities for spellcasters are only available if you give up the flexibility and (usually) more skill points that you could have by taking other classes to "round yourself out."

Right now you've got a much better Strong Hero in the making than you could have made with a human. Sure, he's stupid and unpleasant to be around, but he can hit like nobody's business, he has no penalties to other physical stats, and he can see in the dark. I don't think your complaint is really justified. You might not agree with the way that things are balanced, and heck, it might not even BE balanced for your campaign world, but it's BEEN balanced for the average game world.

-Tacky

 

[Plane Sailing]

I have some issues with the Enforcer and Sniper Frank subtypes.

They give +2 Str or +2 Dex with low light vision in excange for -2 Int and -2 Chr. This is hardly a fair trade.

Low Light vision is NOT worth two stat points. anyone care to think of an explination?

Personally I'm going to change the bonus to +4 or drop on of the stat modifiers.

Here is my explanation.

In D&D there have been numerous explanations (official and unofficial) as to how the half orc +2 Str matches against -2 Int and -2 Cha (especially when darkvision is taken into account)

I believe that Dex has been elevated to the same level of significance as Str in d20M because it is *much* more commonly used for primary combat for most PCs. Thus it is more significant in d20M than Dex was in D&D.

I would imagine that they coupled it with low-light vision rather than "darkvision" since the former is believable and the latter requires magic hand waving. Fine in D&D, not so much in d20M.

+4 CON for the Pratorians is nice - two extra hp, extra MDT and so on - but Con was traded for Cha on a 1-for-1 basis in D&D and I can see why they would do the same again here.

It seems that the genetically bred humans were selected for dorkiness (thick and socially inept)

 

[Mordane76]

From a biological standpoint, and considering what the abilities represent in D&D and d20 Modern, the loss of social attributes in the moreaus is completely understandable. Abilities represent human qualities, and mixing in animal DNA would involve making someone more feral, and hence less socially human.

In the genetically-bred peoples, it may indicate an inadequacy in the technology -- we can make people physically more powerful and capable, but the techniques we use cause irreparable damage to their social capacity. Just my spin on the idea.