Birthright!

Ranger REG said:
ACTUALLY...

And this by no means an offense to all fan web sites, official or otherwise, but most consumers want something official and in print, not a fan netbook.

Sorry, REG, maybe you didn't intended to offense, but you did it.

"Fan netbook"? I don't know for Birthright, but I assume they work simmilary that us in Planewalker.

Yes, maybe it's fan work, because nobody pays us for it, but I can asure you there are lots of people, some of them published authors (Like Brannon Hollingsworth and Ken Marable from Planewalker.com), who spend hours and hours of their free time, for free, trying to write the best book for their beoved setting.

Sorry, but your casual dismissal as "fan netbook" really hurts me.
:mad: :mad:
 

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Not to hijack this thread with a meaningless response, but - I can agree with the sentiment of "fan netbook" - 90% of the stuff I've seen on the internet qualifies as crap, to one extent or another - the same also applies to a lot of the d20 publishers. People try their best, of course, but most efforts invariably turn out to be amateurish. The main label of a quality d20 product remains WotC, and even they have produced some stuff that has been sort of sordid, like Sword & Fist (many good things, but also lots of crap). In the end, the only good way to actually judge something is by seeing the final result - on its own merits. Having something in a physical format does not guarantee quality - it does guarantee that you waste money if it turns out to be crap, though.

I would say "no insult intended," which is true - I just tend to hold pretty high standards as to what is a good product and not. There aren't really that many very good products out there.

To return to the topic, Birthright, the boxed set, as initially published was pure quality - IMO the best campaign setting published by TSR in many ways. Botching that is sort of hard; botching the rules is another, all-too-common matter, but I think we generally have those well in hand.

What Birthright initially suffered under, as I see it, was a certain degree of poor marketing - the "king" aspect was emphasized far too much, to the detriment of what the world actually is - which is a marvelous fantasy world, extremely well built for adventuring and epic "change the world campaigns" though not necessarily epic levels. I think this may have turned a lot of people off - I only initially bought the box to take a look at the domain system, but when I actually read the world's background info - "wow, why didn't I buy this before?" The next thing that Birthright suffered from was a line-up of poor support products, when compared to the initial box - many of the support products were good or even excellent, but many also fall very, very low on my quality-meter.

Birthright was, in many ways, the most LotR-esque of TSR's settings - which should be a strong selling point nowadays. However, while I can't access sales figures, all things I've seen indicate that it fell far short of its potential, perhaps much due to poor marketing. In terms of sheer quality and potential for playability and "epicness," it is one of the best products to have come out of TSR during 2nd Edition.

Of course, that does guarantee the quality of what birthright.net is making - however, I would very much like that you judge it on its own merits, rather than lump it with "fan netbooks."
 

Horacio said:

Sorry, but your casual dismissal as "fan netbook" really hurts me.
:mad: :mad:
Once again, I apologized, although I may not be the first to express an opinion regarding "fan netbook" in general. Nor will I the last.

At least you do have an audience who are downloading your hard work, which may or may not include me. Take comfort in that.

As I said before, I probably will download the 3e rules from Birthright.net and use it for now, until a print product comes along.

(I'm not as big a fanatic of Birthright as a campaign setting, but I have always been interested in rules for governing a nation, even if the rules is emphasizing the "divine rights of king" clause.)
 

Looking at version 3.08 of the Birthright conversion book (the pdf download on the site) I'm glad to see that they have at last removed the +1 attribute modifiers for the human races.

Shows they now understand some of the basic design features of 3rd Edition.
 

The BRCS will be a printable version, so if you have a printer and a couple of hundred sheets of blank paper you can print it out yourself. The pdf version will be formatted to provide good quality printing

WotC have done much the same themselves with the pdf downloads of older material, there are still full official product, but just not in print.

Now the actual product itself will not be a simple netbook or conversion manual, but rather a complete revision of the Birthright rules. There will be an emphasis on keeping to the 3E rules, but not to the point of losing the uniqueness of the setting. It will be presented in a similar style to the Forgotten Realm Campaign Setting, providing information on the races, new feats and skills, BR specific spells, new prestige classes etc but will also include a revision of the BR setting itself, updating the domain rule etc.

Here is a quick chapter by chapter rundown of the BRCS setting as it stands.

Introduction
Chapter One: Characters
Chapter Two: Powers of the Blood (a revision of the BR bloodline rules)
Chapter Three: Magic (Including realm magic, powerful spells available only to regent spellcasters)
Chapter Four: Deities
Chapter Five: Cerilia (Geography of Cerilia).
Chapter Six: Organisations and Prestige Classes
Chapter Seven: Domain Rules (A revision of the rules for runing kingdoms and other domains)
Chapter Eight: Warfare (Rule for fighting large scale battles involving hundred or thousands of soldiers)
Chapter Nine: Running the Game
Chapter Ten: Know thine Enemy (A look at monsters, notable personalities, etc)

Our intention is that when this product is complete it should provide a good rules base to develop addition BR material, and several other products are planned for release once the BRCS is completed.
 

Mark_Aurel said:
The main label of a quality d20 product remains WotC, and even they have produced some stuff that has been sort of sordid, like Sword & Fist

May I suggest AEG's d20 Rokugan and Spycraft product lines. I think you may find that WotC has some catching up to do. :)

I have quirky standards and rate originality up there higher than most and would personaly include d20 Deadlands and Codex Arcanis, but I find others don't agree on me with those two accounts.

On those two AEG products though ... Some say they don't like the genres, but they agree the proudcts are outstanding.
 
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The BRCS will be a printable version, so if you have a printer and a couple of hundred sheets of blank paper you can print it out yourself. The pdf version will be formatted to provide good quality printing

A product of that size basically has to be printed out, but printing a few hundred pages on your home inkjet printer costs as much (in ink cartridges, wear and tear on your printer, and time) as buying a limited-print-run hardback -- and you're stuck with a sheaf of badly printed pages that you still need to get bound at Kinko's.

I guess I'm just surprised that a critically acclaimed 2nd-edition product can't get a physical print-run for its new 3rd-edition version. Wouldn't it sell and make money?
 

mmadsen said:
I guess I'm just surprised that a critically acclaimed 2nd-edition product can't get a physical print-run for its new 3rd-edition version. Wouldn't it sell and make money?

They cannot sell it.

WotC allows the Official Sites create official stuff, but not making money with it. All the stuff from the Official Sites MUST be free.
 

They cannot sell it. WotC allows the Official Sites create official stuff, but not making money with it. All the stuff from the Official Sites MUST be free.

Well, right, but somebody could buy the rights from WotC and put out a Third-Edition Birthright. The question is, why isn't that happening? Doesn't anyone think the book would sell?
 

mmadsen said:


Well, right, but somebody could buy the rights from WotC and put out a Third-Edition Birthright. The question is, why isn't that happening? Doesn't anyone think the book would sell?

Right now there are lots of settings on d20, some of them rather popular. Birthright was wonderful, but it sadly wasn't a true bestseller. So I can understand many publishers are reticent to spend lots of dollars buying the licence and finding it is not so profitable...
 

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