Black Arrow Madness

[Eric Finley]

It's a good question either way, but both conceptually (Black Arrow involves "briefly" gaining Stealth, which can't be done using allies as cover) and in terms of game play (because it's making him a one-trick pony), I think that bringing the "allies don't count for this" home to the table is very reasonable. Explain why you're making the call.

 

[keterys]

Or, to put another way, they don't have cover or concealment _for Perception checks_, so they are automatically seeing through the Stealth check.

 

[tmatk]

...
The Stealth errata (see PHB2 or errata for PHB) says absolutely nothing about the interaction creatures and stealth. Of course, creatures don't normally provide superior cover. So RAW, Black Arrow Feat will allow him to dart behind allies to gain cover from enemies.



...

It does. Under "Keep out of Sight" it reads "You can't use another creature as cover to remain hidden"

 

[Caliber]

I'd argue that this feat is merely adding another use of the Stealth skill, since it doesn't really hide you in any way resembling the standard use of Stealth. You only have to beat the passive Perception of one enemy, and you aren't hidden at all, they still know precisely where you are. You just have combat advantage vs them. More like feinting with Bluff that is reusable under certain conditions.

I'd call not allowing allies to count as Cover for this feat a house rule, although not totally egregious, as long as you'd let someone who took Black Arrow without knowing the chance to change.

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

Dont know if this will help or not but:

Remaining Hidden: You remain hidden as long as you meet these requirements.

Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. You don’t need superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden.

 

[tmatk]

When you make a ranged attack against an enemy and other enemies are in the way, your target has cover"

The cover is only in effect when the ranged attack is made, and only the target has the cover.

The stealth rules state you can't use allies to remain stealthed, even though they grant you cover from ranged attacks.

 

[Caliber]

The cover is only in effect when the ranged attack is made, and only the target has the cover.

The stealth rules state you can't use allies to remain stealthed, even though they grant you cover from ranged attacks.

Hrms. That (the bolded part) is a pretty solid reason to rule allies don't count. But it seems to be disputed by this 'graph:

Determining Cover: To determine if a target has cover, choose a corner of a square you occupy (or a corner of your attack’s origin square) and trace imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the target occupies. If one or two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle or an enemy, the target has cover. (A line isn’t blocked if it runs along the edge of an obstacle’s or an enemy’s square.) If three or four of those lines are blocked but you have line of effect, the target has superior cover.

As for the stealth stuff, again, the feat doesn't really interact with the regular stealth rules at all; it simply uses the Stealth skill. The rules for how to use Stealth to hide are completely tangential here.

 

[Eric Finley]

Well, the basic problem is that 'cover' isn't well-defined at all, outside of the two situations... one, Keeping Hidden, and two, "To determine if a target...". You're not his target (remember that "target" has a specific game meaning) for anything; you're not using Stealth normally. So the cover rules, if narrowly construed, actually say nothing about the situation.

Which leaves it up to the DM to quite legitimately decide which is closer to the usage here. And IMO the fact that it calls for a Stealth roll makes it much closer to the Stealth situation than the targeting one. So... YMMV, but in my opinion it isn't even a house rule. It's a rules call on an unclear situation. Pending errata, the narrowly-construed RAW appears to say nothing about it at all. So it's up to the DM, even in Living Forgotten Realms.

Sure, give him a chance to retrain Black Arrow if he doesn't like it. But IMO the feat is still easily the best of the Style feats and well worth its weight. Betcha the player will feel so as well.

 

[Caliber]

It's a rules call on an unclear situation. Pending errata, the narrowly-construed RAW appears to say nothing about it at all. So it's up to the DM, even in Living Forgotten Realms.

I can agree to that.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Also agreed, however this DM will be ruling that the Stealth {be hidden} rules apply and you can't simply duck behind an ally.