Black Panther Trailer

[Derren]

It's a "wait for TV" for me -- I haven't watched a Marvel flick in the cinema for a couple of years now. I'm kinda burnedt out on them; though I do hear that this one is really good.

It certainly is good, but imo it misses the final "Omph" to be great. Nothing much to criticise, a rather constant good level (gets a bit weaker in the 2nd half imo) but also no memorable highlight in my eyes.
I even have a hard time calling it a superhero movie. Yes, the characters jump higher and the swords are glowing, but thats it. The same story can (and has several times) be told with just regular persons. There is nothing really "superheroish" happening.
There is also hardly any reference to other Marvel movies in BP. They acknowledge that Civil War happened (kinda had to as BPs father died there), one indirect reference to civil war and one after credit scene. Thats it.

Certainly not a must see, but if you plan to go to the cinema anyway, BP as a very solid choice.

 

[Imaro]

It certainly is good, but imo it misses the final "Omph" to be great. Nothing much to criticise, a rather constant good level (gets a bit weaker in the 2nd half imo) but also no memorable highlight in my eyes.


Certainly not a must see, but if you plan to go to the cinema anyway, BP as a very solid choice.

I've seen it and I'd strongly disagree with this assessment, for me it's definitely a must see and in my top 3 Marvel movies. I'll try to address how I see some of the criticisms you have with the movie and offer an alternative opinion below.

I'm a little confused about the "Omph" moment comment for me it was the choice Killmonger makes at the end... a very Magneto-esque thing (which I'll talk more about later) to do IMO and for may blacks in America who face similar quandaries about identity/selling out/the past/etc. it hits very close to home.

Funnily enough most critics say it's the beginning of the movie that is weak claiming it feels more like a spy movie vs. a superhero movie... of course I'm starting to think perhaps the expectation for superhero movies may be off since Black Widow and Hawkeye are both considered superheroes (with no super powers and only agent/spy training).

I think what makes the movie memorable was how easy it is to empathize with the villain Killmonger's motivation (a serious weak point in nearly all Marvel movies up to this point)... honestly the ideologies of both Killmonger and T'challa gave off a very Magneto vs. Xavier (or as Stan Lee has often cited a Martin Luther King vs. Malcolm X vibe since that is who the characters were at least in part based on) vibe for me that I found refreshingly thought provoking (something I really haven't experienced with a Marvel movie up to this point), especially as a black person in the U.S.

I even have a hard time calling it a superhero movie. Yes, the characters jump higher and the swords are glowing, but thats it. The same story can (and has several times) be told with just regular persons. There is nothing really "superheroish" happening.

I'm having a hard time parsing this... What is "superheroish" in your opinion? Are movies like Captain America and Wonder Woman (basically just war stories with a superhero included) not "superheroish"? I'd definitely need to understand the definiton you are using before addressing it but I'll say most superhero stories could be told with regular people if interpreted at an abstract enough level...

There is also hardly any reference to other Marvel movies in BP. They acknowledge that Civil War happened (kinda had to as BPs father died there), one indirect reference to civil war and one after credit scene. Thats it.

If I'm recalling correctly few if any of the movies introducing single heroes to the MCU (Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, Dr. Strange, etc.) reference other Marvel movies with more than a nod... so not sure why BP in his origin movie would necessarily buck that trend, especially since Wakanda is an isolated nation. We've already seen his connection to the Avengers in Civil War so anything beyond a mention of that would, IMO take away from his origin story.

 

[Derren]

and for may blacks in America who face similar quandaries about identity/selling out/the past/etc. it hits very close to home.

Thats probably why we have a different opinion of this movie. I do not really care what this movie might or might not mean for someone on the other side of the world. And once you cut that out what remains is a fairly conventional story of king and an ursurper out of nowhere without any changes to the formula. For a really great movie BP would have needed to make something special and memorable out of it. For you that special something seems to be that the cast is black. For me it isnt.

 

[Imaro]

Thats probably why we have a different opinion of this movie. I do not really care what this movie might or might not mean for someone on the other side of the world.

I doubt that's the reason for our difference of opinion... I addressed your statements with counterpoints... how about you do the same? How do you define a "superhero" movie? What superhero movies do a really great job in your opinion and why? And I'm going to go out on a limb and assume these movies would have none of the flaws you called out for BP... right?

And once you cut that out what remains is a fairly conventional story of king and an ursurper out of nowhere without any changes to the formula.

I guess if you cut out the movie's themes, it's details, it's character's motivations, etc...yes you would have a fairly conventional story... but I think that's true for any movie. Just from your statement above I feel like you perhaps missed some parts of the movie... the usurper doesn't come "out of nowhere" he's given a background and motivation that is not only intrinsically tied to Wakanda, T'challa and the royal family but serves to call into question the morality of T'Challa's father, the previous Black Panther, and his adviser as well as providing the catalyst for a crossroads where the new king T'challa has to choose between tradition and change, that choice by the end of the movie reverberates throughout Wakanda and the world in the MCU. This is a universal theme, not a black theme. Since your post seems to imply you find it hard relating to the exploration of a theme that may be/is more relevant to a different set of people (though still universal at some level).

For a really great movie BP would have needed to make something special and memorable out of it. For you that special something seems to be that the cast is black. For me it isnt.

No, I listed some of the reasons I thought the BP movie was special and memorable and even invited you to make some counter points (which you instead chose to ignore)... and for the record not a single one of them was... the cast is black. But thanks for trying to simplify the post I took the time to reply to you with in hopes of conversation in such a dismissive way.

 

[Mallus]

And once you cut that out what remains is a fairly conventional story of king and an ursurper out of nowhere without any changes to the formula. For a really great movie BP would have needed to make something special and memorable out of it.

Yes, a fairly conventional story about the King of African Atlantis, who is also James Bond and his kid sister who is Tony Stark and Q combined, dealing with a challenge to his throne and also the legacy of colonialism and slavery and the African Diaspora. Typical blockbuster fare.

There really isn't anything conventional about Black Panther. Not saying you should like it more, but give its ambition the credit it's due.

For me, easily top 5 Marvel movies. Prolly top 3. The villain is so well written & acted it really casts virtually every other Marvel movie in a bad light. And like the first Guardians of the Galaxy, BP works as a tour of a fascinating part of the Marvel universe, one that exists outside of the "New York & D.C. & L.A. but with superheroes" we see elsewhere.

 

[cmad1977]

It’s easily top 3 Marvel films. Easily. Probably number 1 on my list.

 

[Tonguez]

can anyone explain what was up with W'kabi doing the big heel turn and actually bringing in Mecha-Rhinos to kill other Wakandans
wasn't Wkabi the greatest villain in the movie, he's certainly fickle with his affections?


the movie was good, not the greatest marvel movie ever like some of the hype is claiming, but enjoyable as a spy movie. I did like the reflection on colonialism that was sprinkled through and that all the secondary characters (Nakia, Shuri, Mbaku) each were interesting in their own right.

I'm not happy with Klaue being killed so easily (hopefully the vibranium in his system allows him to'come back) and while Killmonger was a good antagonist, I'm not seeing how he was better than Hela or (okay just Hela)

 

[Derren]

No, I listed some of the reasons I thought the BP movie was special and memorable and even invited you to make some counter points (which you instead chose to ignore)... and for the record not a single one of them was... the cast is black. But thanks for trying to simplify the post I took the time to reply to you with in hopes of conversation in such a dismissive way.

And yet you felt the need, several times at length in fact, to mention the effects the movie might have on black people in your review so this topic is obviously important to you.

Yes the bad guy has a backstory to justify why he is not instantly thrown out. But he still shows up in Wakanda where nobody knew about him, punches T'Challa in the face and is crowned king. This ursurper out of nowhere story is nothing new as is how BP resolves it.

Several references to James Bond have already made and that is kinda the thing. If you remove the superpowers nothing much would change. T'Challa couldnt jump as high but thats it. Especially the 2nd half (Killmonger arrives in Wakanda) nothing would really change. Try to do that with Ant-Man and you would have to rewrite most if the movie including the entire premise.

Granted, Black Panther doesnt have the most distinctive set of superpowers. Most action heroes are in the end stronger, faster and more enduring than average persons even outside superhero movies. Captain America at least had his signature shield to throw around. Black Widow is a good comparison. Yes, she is technically a superhero because she is part of the Avengers, but guess why she didnt had her movie yet and why Hawkeye probably wont be getting one.

Does BP make the Top 5? Yes, maybe. But not the Top 3. It is just a good movie but for the Top 3 you need more than that. And if in a few years I had to list all Marvel movies in the order they come to mind BP wouldn't be near the top as there is nothing that stands out.

That there are hardly any references to the Marvelverse was not a complain but simply an information for Morrus.

 

[Tonguez]

And yet you felt the need, several times at length in fact, to mention the effects the movie might have on black people in your review so this topic is obviously important to you.

Yes the bad guy has a backstory to justify why he is not instantly thrown out. But he still shows up in Wakanda where nobody knew about him, punches T'Challa in the face and is crowned king. This ursurper out of nowhere story is nothing new as is how BP resolves it.

Several references to James Bond have already made and that is kinda the thing. If you remove the superpowers nothing much would change. T'Challa couldnt jump as high but thats it. Especially the 2nd half (Killmonger arrives in Wakanda) nothing would really change. Try to do that with Ant-Man and you would have to rewrite most if the movie including the entire premise.

Granted, Black Panther doesnt have the most distinctive set of superpowers. Most action heroes are in the end stronger, faster and more enduring than average persons even outside superhero movies. Captain America at least had his signature shield to throw around. Black Widow is a good comparison. Yes, she is technically a superhero because she is part of the Avengers, but guess why she didnt had her movie yet and why Hawkeye probably wont be getting one.

.

one of the things that Marvel has done well (and been praised for) is that they have been able to make movies that would fit across a variety of genre and not just 'superhero action' With that in mind we have had Cap 1 as a war movie and Cap 2 as a political thriller.
Guardians of the Galaxy and Thor have also not been superhero movies and to some extent neither was Civil War.

Related to this is the critiscism that MArvel movies all follow a standard formula and retread the same old standard tropes, but personally I think that these are strengths. That Black Panther bases itself firmly as a Spy film is a good thing, it gives a fun, familiar hook for audiences to relate to, which can then be subverted via the presentation of Tchalla's obligations as King and then layered with the the narative of colonialism and diaspora, tradition and isolation v altruism and modernity, all within a relatively standard 'King v Ursurper' trope. I liked it.

(As for Antman, while the size change thing was a great gimmick, I think the same story could have happened with out the Pym particles, indeed the story itself reminded me of Remo: Unarmed and Dangerous (1985 movie) in particular the training montage - but maybe thats just me.

 

[Imaro]

I'm not happy with Klaue being killed so easily (hopefully the vibranium in his system allows him to'come back) and while Killmonger was a good antagonist, I'm not seeing how he was better than Hela or (okay just Hela)

I think it boils down to the fact that Killmonger while certainly seeking revenge for wrongs against himself is, in his own way, also seeking to empower those he considers his people (mainly those forcibly taken from Africa and oppressed by foreign powers) by arming them with technology and knowledge from Wakanda... while Hela is, if I remember it correctly (and I could be worng since I watched the movie a while ago), purely about gaining power... because she wants power(??) and exacting revenge for her imprisonment.

EDIT: Again IMO very reminiscent of Magneto and his agenda of empowering mutants to strike back at those who oppress them.