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Black Panther Trailer

Imaro

Adventurer
Because starting with the desired result first and then going backwards to justify that result is completely unscientific and any exploration made on this premise is flawed.

Who said anything about this being a scientific exploration?? Black Panther is a superhero comic book... It's exploring the themes around non-colonized Africa and an African king/superhero narrative as speculative fiction.

And I doubt that anyone at Marvel has enough experience as a historian to even begin to make an informed exploration of alternate history.

Wait... now you need to be an experienced historian to write speculative fiction about a subject??

Especially as the comics are still intended as light entertainment with mass market appeal so they go with the rule of cool and whatever their marketing department things the target demographic likes instead of doing actual historic evaluations.

Light entertainment with mass market appeal describes some comic books... not all but some. Not sure how much mass market appeal an African king/superhero of a technologically advanced culture that was never colonized had in the 60's... *shrug*

Archaic as in their head of state is chosen by single combat.

That would be cultural tradition... no more or less archaic than being the ruler because you happen to be born lucky... right?
 

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Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
I don't think just because it uses a fictional catalyst for the successful rejection of colonialism means the movie lacks real world relevance (though I agree we can never know what an Uganda that was never colonized would actually be like). Maybe I'm reading your statement wrong but you seem to be saying no fiction can have relevance to the real world because it has fictitious elements/events. If that is the premise I disagree fictional stories like myths, legends, etc. have always had relevance to the real world... even though we know they aren't documentaries.

no my statement was intended to convey the opposite:)

my referencing of the African response to Black Panthers release in Kisumu, Kenya (where Lupita Nyong'o originates) and South Africa was to illustrate that the movies impact is one that focusses on the current perspective of Africans living in a modern city, incorporating the beauty of African culture while focussed on a high tech future. That for me is what stories and myth do, they inform modern perspectives and impact on future actions.

So while Vibranium might be analgous to the resources of real world Africa, and Wakandan as an amalgam drawing its motifs from many different cultures of Africa has power to generate excitement across the continent, the Wakanda perspective can only set us to wonder about what the past might have been like without colonialism, it can not have relevance to the historic reality in Africa and how it has come to this point. The excitement and enthusiasm in African motif and African storytelling is for me far more important and far more relevant anyway.

When they created BP they started with the result, a panther themed superhero, and added some fantasy elements as origin. You can't simply turn this around and use it as allegory of what could have been without colonialism as the creators never asked that question.

Ah nope the creators were specifically intent on creating a Black African superhero, the Panther theme came later (he was originally conceived under the name Coal Tiger). More importantly Ryan Coogler directly called out colonialism in how he conceived of the story saying "“We were taught that we lost the things that made us African. We lost our culture, and now we have to make do with scraps.” Killmonger is precisely this character - the American child of Africa cruelly cut off from his culture and making do with the scraps.

I studied anthropology and thus the museum scene that introduces Killmonger is hugely impactful in this regard, western experts defining African reality is something that induces rage in the excluded 'subject'.

This comic book origin is also a major disconnect in the movie. On one hand Wakanda is very advanced, on the other it is very archaic because some comic logic had to be kept.

what aspects do you consider archaic?

The BBC had interviews at the Nigeria screening and one of the amusing anecdotes was from a guy who proclaimed that Mbaku must be Igbo with "M'Baku's accent was so igbo. I felt all my ancestors in the movie with me".

Thats a testimony both to Winston Dukes acting skill (considering he's from Trinidad&Tobago) and also the continuing importance of culture in modern Africa as was reference in Wakanda
 
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Derren

Hero
Who said anything about this being a scientific exploration?? Black Panther is a superhero comic book... It's exploring the themes around non-colonized Africa and an African king/superhero narrative as speculative fiction.



Wait... now you need to be an experienced historian to write speculative fiction about a subject??

And because all of that Black Panther is just light entertainment and not suitable to use for exploration of real world historic issues.

That would be cultural tradition... no more or less archaic than being the ruler because you happen to be born lucky... right?

And in Wakanda you both needed to be lucky and good at stabbing things to become head of state. Not to mention that real monarchies are quite rare by now.
By the same reasoning you could say that burning witches is not archaic but a cultural tradition.
 
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Imaro

Adventurer
And because all of that Black Panther is just light entertainment and not suitable to use for exploration of real world historic issues.

Or it actually is working as a a good medium to explore and, especially with the number of people seeing it, to get people to thinking about real world historic issues. You seem to want it to take a specific course to achieve that, the movie not taking that specific course doesn't mean it didn't have the intended impact of exploring and getting people to think about those real world historic issues... irregardless of your personal opinion.

And in Wakanda you both needed to be lucky and good at stabbing things to become head of state. Not to mention that real monarchies are quite rare by now.
By the same reasoning you could say that burning witches is not archaic but a cultural tradition.

You still haven't shown how ritual combat (because it's made clear it doesn't have to be to the death) is archaic vs. say the monarchy of England... Different traditions but neither could be definitively proven to be more progressive than the other. So if a monarchy can exist in current day why does this tradition still being part of an isolated country that has never been colonized cause a disconnect for you?

EDIT: Honestly it's getting kind of hard to follow the logical progression of your arguments against BP... they seem all over the place like you're haphazardly thinking of things to gripe about but not giving them the necessary consideration before disparaging them so that the issue actually makes sense.
 
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Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
And in Wakanda you both needed to be lucky and good at stabbing things to become head of state. Not to mention that real monarchies are quite rare by now.
By the same reasoning you could say that burning witches is not archaic but a cultural tradition.

not that rare, there are 49 current Monarchies which out of 195 countries is more than 25%

also when the British Parliament is opened, one of its members must be taken hostage and kept "prisoner" for the duration to ensure the safety of the Queen.
 
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Mallus

Hero
I honestly found the contrast between T'challa and Killmonger to have strong echoes of the Xavier and Magneto conflict.
Me too.

If I had one disappointment with Black Panther, it's that Killmonger dies at the end. Don't get me wrong, he goes out in a fantastic scene, but I would have loved to see the relationship of T'challa and Eric develop over time, like Xavier and Magneto. Possibly ending up in some future timeline as reconciled friends, or at least as longtime rivals who respect one another.

Of course, this a Marvel universe. Killmonger might not stay dead...
 

Imaro

Adventurer
Me too.

If I had one disappointment with Black Panther, it's that Killmonger dies at the end. Don't get me wrong, he goes out in a fantastic scene, but I would have loved to see the relationship of T'challa and Eric develop over time, like Xavier and Magneto. Possibly ending up in some future timeline as reconciled friends, or at least as longtime rivals who respect one another.

Of course, this a Marvel universe. Killmonger might not stay dead...

I agree would have loved to see a deeper exploration of their philosophies... but like you said it is the Marvel universe... I don't think Killmonger or Klaue will stay dead.
 

Derren

Hero
Or it actually is working as a a good medium to explore and, especially with the number of people seeing it, to get people to thinking about real world historic issues. You seem to want it to take a specific course to achieve that, the movie not taking that specific course doesn't mean it didn't have the intended impact of exploring and getting people to think about those real world historic issues... irregardless of your personal opinion.
Explore what exactly considering it has 0 relation to the real world?
You still haven't shown how ritual combat (because it's made clear it doesn't have to be to the death) is archaic vs. say the monarchy of England... Different traditions but neither could be definitively proven to be more progressive than the other. So if a monarchy can exist in current day why does this tradition still being part of an isolated country that has never been colonized cause a disconnect for you?

Except that in England the queen is pretty much powerless while the power of the king in Wakanda is absolute. If you want to compare those two countries you have to compare the election of the prime minister to ritual, possibly deadly, combat with spears and clubs.
Absolute monarchies, the like of which Wakanda has, are rather rare nowadays. So if you want to compare Wakanda to a real world country you have to use Saudi-Arabia (and they do not use ritual combat).
And yes, England also has several archaic traditions, starting with the hostage and ending with the wigs judges wear. Still, such things are inconsequential while the combat in Wakanda not only have far flung consequences, it can also be deadly.

Honestly, it's getting kind of hard to follow your single minded defence of BP which includes defending the practice of choosing the head of state based on how good he is at bashing heads in.
 
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Imaro

Adventurer
Explore what exactly considering it has 0 relation to the real world?


Except that in England the queen is pretty much powerless while the power of the king in Wakanda is absolute. If you want to compare those two countries you have to compare the election of the prime minister to ritual, possibly deadly, combat with spears and clubs.
Absolute monarchies, the like of which Wakanda has, are rather rare nowadays. So if you want to compare Wakanda to a real world country you have to use Saudi-Arabia (and they do not use ritual combat).
And yes, England also has several archaic traditions, starting with the hostage and ending with the wicks judges wear. Still, such things are inconsequential while the combat in Wakanda not only have far flung consequences, it can also be deadly.

Honestly, it's getting kind of hard to follow your single minded defence of BP which includes defending the practice of choosing the head of state based on how good he is at bashing heads in.

You're just trolling now... aren't you?
 


Imaro

Adventurer
I guess you do not want to answer, do you?

Answer what? On the one hand you say it doesn't matter to you what effect the movie had on people of color because that doesn't matter in determining whether it's a good movie... but then on the other hand you are certain it can't possibly be a machine or catalyst for people of color to explore the themes around an African country that was never colonized but... that's exactly the kind of conversation (among many others) that the movie has been sparking... which you'd probably realize if you cared about the effect it had on people that weren't you but you don't because that has no bearing on how good the movie is... see how ridiculous this is becoming.
 

Derren

Hero
Answer what? On the one hand you say it doesn't matter to you what effect the movie had on people of color because that doesn't matter in determining whether it's a good movie... but then on the other hand you are certain it can't possibly be a machine or catalyst for people of color to explore the themes around an African country that was never colonized but... that's exactly the kind of conversation (among many others) that the movie has been sparking... which you'd probably realize if you cared about the effect it had on people that weren't you but you don't because that has no bearing on how good the movie is... see how ridiculous this is becoming.

Ah I see were your problem is, you take things out of context to suit your needs.
It doesn't matter to me what political effects a movie has when I give my personal opinion if it is a good movie or not. If you scroll back and reread my post you might notice that this was the topic back then.
The entire discussion that I find it silly to base a exploration of real world issue on a completely fictional entertainment product has started much later and has nothing to do wheter I think how the BP movie was.
BP can serve as a catalyst to talk about the effects of colonization, but people have taken it farther than that and somehow use Wakanda as a role model or actual possibility (sans Vibranium) which in my eyes goes much too far.
 
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Things I liked:
- The plot managed to be mostly self contained and localized, especially the climax. Too many super-hero movies these days involve "the worst threat ever faced" and epic final battles that destroy entire cities. The final battle here was two small tribes, two humans battling in a small area, and less than a dozen airplanes in the background. But still meaningful and tense.
- The visuals. Good landscapes. Better than average CGI.
- The secondary characters. The generals and others were minor but well fleshed out.
- The handling of racial issues.
- Didn't waste too much time on the pointless romantic sub-plot.

Things I didn't like:
- The flow of time in storytelling. En media res - but it's a flashback, followed by events that happened in other movies, then the real plot, then flashbacks that conclude the en media res, then the real plot again. I swear linearity wasn't always this hard.
- The Wakandan city was way to big. Should have been maybe a quarter of the size shown.
- A super hero died! Oh, wait, he's alive.
- Salting (burning) the earth for no good in-universe reason. Clearly done just to prevent the question "Why don't they make more more Black Panthers?" in Infinity War.
- The stinger.

I'm generally burned out on super hero movies, but this was in the top 5 MCU movies for me.
 

BP can serve as a catalyst to talk about the effects of colonization, but people have taken it farther than that and somehow use Wakanda as a role model or actual possibility (sans Vibranium) which in my eyes goes much too far.

You should probably never watch Star Trek.
 

Derren

Hero
Things I liked:
- The plot managed to be mostly self contained and localized, especially the climax. Too many super-hero movies these days involve "the worst threat ever faced" and epic final battles that destroy entire cities. The final battle here was two small tribes, two humans battling in a small area, and less than a dozen airplanes in the background. But still meaningful and tense.

Thats especially important in a shared universe like the MCU as with a large threat the question is always why XYZ wouldn't show up.
 

Thats especially important in a shared universe like the MCU as with a large threat the question is always why XYZ wouldn't show up.

Definitely. It's also something the MCU has completely and utter failed at multiple times. Iron Man 3 comes to mind as the worst example. Why weren't more heroes able to help Tony? And why was the House Party Protocol never used again/before? Because it's an Iron Man movie. Civil War also failed in the other direction; it was supposed to be a Captain America movie but was really just Avengers without a couple expensive stars.

BP got this one right in a lot of ways.
 

Derren

Hero
Definitely. It's also something the MCU has completely and utter failed at multiple times. Iron Man 3 comes to mind as the worst example. Why weren't more heroes able to help Tony? And why was the House Party Protocol never used again/before? Because it's an Iron Man movie. Civil War also failed in the other direction; it was supposed to be a Captain America movie but was really just Avengers without a couple expensive stars.

BP got this one right in a lot of ways.

Civil War also introduced the Sakovia Accords which are especially problematic. Not in the movies but the TV series. Especially now as most of the Defenders are known superheroes and should have been, according to the Accords, already have been picked up.
 

Definetly a solid movie.

Killmonger was played excellent, and his cause and motive was just realistic enough that you could relate. And the
Well acted, decent special effects, and funny without being too banter filled or silly. And I loved the Wakandan technology, and the mix of science fiction weaponry with traditional tribal designs. Things like the airship shaped like a ritual mask. I like how they adapted the idea of Kimono card from Priest’s run of the comics with beads, which are more stylized.
I also dug how they managed to include Nakia, M’Baku the Man-Ape, Killmonger, and Klaw all in one movie.

The plot was pretty predictable all things considered. But it’s a Hollywood movies, and the response to The Last Jedi showed what happens when you dare to veer away from The Formula.

Plus it’s great for black kids to see heroes that look like them for a change. To have a movie that isn’t wall to wall white people. That’s great. While it has zero impact on me, as I possess basic human empathy I can be happy at the joy of others.
 

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