Blackguard Design & Development is up.

[Aegeri]

What I don't understand:
With what other level 1 at-will powers are you comparing it?

Bonus points for comparing it with available at-will powers of defenders!

Let's just look at powers that the Blackguard might be able to take (theoretically), but just the paladin in general for now. You also appear confused because the Blackguard isn't a defender - it's actually a striker (Much like how the slayer is a striker build of the fighter, not that fighters can't adequately pull off a secondary striker role anyway). But none the less:

Holy Strike (Paladin): Which grants a bonus to Wisdom damage against marked enemies (Damn solid that one). That's far better.

Valiant Strike (Paladin): Grants a bonus to the attack roll equal to the number of enemies adjacent for you (good for multimarking paladins).

Strike of Hope (Paladin): Grants 5 temp HP to an ally within 5, grants an additional 5 temp HP to the ally if they are bloodied.

Vengeful Strike (Paladin): Does radiant damage right off the bat, grants extra radiant damage and does +charisma damage if a bloodied ally is within 5.

Now 2 of these are what I think are situational - in the same category as this power. Would you rather have a poor at-will that basically might let you get CA - easily got in a wide variety of ways - or would you rather at-wills like the above that are useful in a wide variety of situations? All 4 of the above are paladin at-wills, so I didn't need to go far to easily show you four much better powers. When Valiant strike is required, it is amazing and serves a multimarking paladin well. Vengeful strike deals one of the best damage types in the game off the bat and can deal extra radiant damage. Those are 'conditional' at-wills, which are still far better than this.

Noting that - this is important - nothing stops a blackguard taking these at-wills unless he's pigeonholed into at-wills by his vice (which would just be a shame). The simple thing here is if you're another paladin or let's just say this was a fighter power: Do you honestly think this power would in any way stack up to other at-wills of these classes? Would normal paladins take this power? Quite frankly, it's not stacking up against paladin powers and we know the Blackguard can take them (theoretically of course). When you rely on CA for class features, there are much more reliable ways of doing it and my point about wintertouched/lasting frost is that will turn all of your powers into doing this by default.

The ability to set up a round of CA, especially against other enemies who you might normally have difficulty acquiring that...

Take a feat like cunning stalker and then you get CA against any isolated creature. If you have friends, it's likely you have flanking and against everything else that might be isolated - automatically - you have CA. This feat is just far more generally useful and will serve the function most people who have tried to defend this at-will have used: Attacking "isolated" strong targets.

Well now you don't need to worry in the first place. Cunning stalker is also terrific for a blackguard who wants to charge an isolated enemy, gain CA on the charge and potentially hit far harder (+1 charging, +2 CA if the enemy has nothing else adjacent to it is very solid - all without ever needing to hit in the first place!).

...it is situational, sure, but not nearly as terrible as you have condemned it to be.

Sure, if it was the general standard of at-wills it wouldn't be terrible. You compare it to the above and tell me out of say, those 5 choices - what would you take? Look at the two situational powers above and tell me what you'd rather have. This power: Or would you rather Valiant Strike? Or would you rather have Vengeful Strike? Both are equally situational, but they are far better for what they do.

For me, I wouldn't be so harsh on this if: The CA was an effect - or - the CA was granted to all. As it is the other at-wills the blackguard has have to be pretty bad for this to be a good choice. Alternatively, if it could be used as a MBA I would totally see and understand the point.

Not only that but frostcheese requires being paragon. What do you do for the first 10 levels?

Cunning stalker. Good at wills last 3 tiers of play, not just heroic and even then, not until you take a single feat

 

[Zaran]

I seriously doubt that WotC pays attention to pre-essentials feats when designing these new builds.

 

[Aegeri]

I seriously doubt that WotC pays attention to pre-essentials feats when designing these new builds.

Cunning Stalker is from Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms. If wizards aren't paying attention to what they've just published, we're in serious trouble. Also this book does have some feat support for cold builds and I am very interested to see what they've added.

 

[Drakhar]

Let's just look at powers that the Blackguard might be able to take (theoretically), but just the paladin in general for now. You also appear confused because the Blackguard isn't a defender - it's actually a striker (Much like how the slayer is a striker build of the fighter, not that fighters can't adequately pull off a secondary striker role anyway). But none the less:

Holy Strike (Paladin): Which grants a bonus to Wisdom damage against marked enemies (Damn solid that one). That's far better.

Valiant Strike (Paladin): Grants a bonus to the attack roll equal to the number of enemies adjacent for you (good for multimarking paladins).

Strike of Hope (Paladin): Grants 5 temp HP to an ally within 5, grants an additional 5 temp HP to the ally if they are bloodied.

Vengeful Strike (Paladin): Does radiant damage right off the bat, grants extra radiant damage and does +charisma damage if a bloodied ally is within 5.

Now 2 of these are what I think are situational - in the same category as this power. Would you rather have a poor at-will that basically might let you get CA - easily got in a wide variety of ways - or would you rather at-wills like the above that are useful in a wide variety of situations? All 4 of the above are paladin at-wills, so I didn't need to go far to easily show you four much better powers. When Valiant strike is required, it is amazing and serves a multimarking paladin well. Vengeful strike deals one of the best damage types in the game off the bat and can deal extra radiant damage. Those are 'conditional' at-wills, which are still far better than this.

Noting that - this is important - nothing stops a blackguard taking these at-wills unless he's pigeonholed into at-wills by his vice (which would just be a shame). The simple thing here is if you're another paladin or let's just say this was a fighter power: Do you honestly think this power would in any way stack up to other at-wills of these classes? Would normal paladins take this power? Quite frankly, it's not stacking up against paladin powers and we know the Blackguard can take them (theoretically of course). When you rely on CA for class features, there are much more reliable ways of doing it and my point about wintertouched/lasting frost is that will turn all of your powers into doing this by default.



Take a feat like cunning stalker and then you get CA against any isolated creature. If you have friends, it's likely you have flanking and against everything else that might be isolated - automatically - you have CA. This feat is just far more generally useful and will serve the function most people who have tried to defend this at-will have used: Attacking "isolated" strong targets.

Well now you don't need to worry in the first place. Cunning stalker is also terrific for a blackguard who wants to charge an isolated enemy, gain CA on the charge and potentially hit far harder (+1 charging, +2 CA if the enemy has nothing else adjacent to it is very solid - all without ever needing to hit in the first place!).

Sure, if it was the general standard of at-wills it wouldn't be terrible. You compare it to the above and tell me out of say, those 5 choices - what would you take? Look at the two situational powers above and tell me what you'd rather have. This power: Or would you rather Valiant Strike? Or would you rather have Vengeful Strike? Both are equally situational, but they are far better for what they do.

For me, I wouldn't be so harsh on this if: The CA was an effect - or - the CA was granted to all. As it is the other at-wills the blackguard has have to be pretty bad for this to be a good choice. Alternatively, if it could be used as a MBA I would totally see and understand the point.



Cunning stalker. Good at wills last 3 tiers of play, not just heroic and even then, not until you take a single feat

I notice your answer to why this at-will is crap is that there are feats that give you CA. But IMHO if I don't need to spend a feat because I have an at-will that gives me the CA I need, all the better, I can use my feats for other things, like survival, or a better weapon, or expertise. And you keep saying that a Blackguard should be using frostcheese to get their CA, but guess what, Frostcheese requires you to hit in the first place as well AND takes up two feat slots.

 

[MrMyth]

Take a feat like cunning stalker and then you get CA against any isolated creature. If you have friends, it's likely you have flanking and against everything else that might be isolated - automatically - you have CA. This feat is just far more generally useful and will serve the function most people who have tried to defend this at-will have used: Attacking "isolated" strong targets.

Feats are also, honestly, a more expensive resource. Why waste a feat slot on one if I can usually expect to get CA anyway, and have access to an At-will that will often provide it in cases where I will not?

For me, I wouldn't be so harsh on this if: The CA was an effect - or - the CA was granted to all. As it is the other at-wills the blackguard has have to be pretty bad for this to be a good choice. Alternatively, if it could be used as a MBA I would totally see and understand the point.

I think the thing you are really missing here is that the CA is independant of who you are currently attacking. With Wintertouched / Lasting Frost, you gain combat advantage when attacking someone you hit the previous round. With this power, as long as you hit the target in round 1, you have CA against anyone the following round.

Does that make it the best power ever? Of course not. But it does give it a utility that is perfectly useful, and in line what I expect to find in conditional at wills.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I don't think there is any design principle that says an at-will HAS to be useful in all tiers of play. You may well also WANT to keep it and use your feats for other things. Any power can situationally be the best choice in a given situation, but I CAN see situations where getting easy CA without the kinds of conditions that Cunning Stalker imposes can be quite handy. I don't actually see ANY general marking mechanic for a Blackguard either, and doubt one exists, so that excludes Holy Strike from consideration at all. Valiant Strike will be better, sometimes, and not other times. Strike of Hope and Vengeful Strike again MAY be better under specific conditions. They may well be better MOST of the time, and that doesn't make this new at-will useless. Exactly what I would choose for a hypothetical build of a class I don't know all the basic features of? We don't know that yet.

There are plenty of at-wills in the game that are marginal for most builds, and maybe even only second choices for ANY build, so I'm not really seeing where this one is really out of line.

 

[Aegeri]

I notice your answer to why this at-will is crap is that there are feats that give you CA.

Yes and on all attacks without needing to hit - that's sort of the inherent point. If you need CA, you can get it all the time and without needing to rely on hitting with a power. Instead you can have CA + Good At-Will (or just flat out start with an encounter power, why bother with the at-will anyway when you're easily generating CA) without any issue. Especially when you can combine that with a charge, getting an additional bonus if needed.

But IMHO if I don't need to spend a feat because I have an at-will that gives me the CA I need

If you hit. If you need CA in the first place, having to rely on an unreliable power instead of an entirely reliable and simple feat is just being silly.

And you keep saying that a Blackguard should be using frostcheese to get their CA, but guess what, Frostcheese requires you to hit in the first place as well AND takes up two feat slots.

Yeah, but grants you [effectively] +5 damage and CA as well: More than worth two feat slots for any striker. Also the key point you missed is that you can use this combo on every single one of your powers: You don't have to care what you're attacking with. So you can attack with an at-will with an actually good effect and still get your CA (plus +5 damage). Especially when you have a cold+necrotic encounter as well, which really helps with many resistance problems. Plus if something lets you get a bit of adding vulnerable necrotic you can get really in business very fast. Again, cunning stalker can let you get the initial CA - all without wasting an at-will slot on a terrible power

Feats are also, honestly, a more expensive resource. Why waste a feat slot on one if I can usually expect to get CA anyway, and have access to an At-will that will often provide it in cases where I will not?

Why not get a feat that will do it all the time in a wide variety of circumstances and then take a much better at-will? If the blackguard needs CA (and we've heard he does) getting CA all the time is far better than getting CA on having to rely on hitting an enemy: Then making another attack (or needing to spend an action point).

Also taking a feat that grants you CA easily in a huge number of circumstances is not wasting a feat: Especially if you rely on getting CA!

I think the thing you are really missing here is that the CA is independant of who you are currently attacking.

No, I actually do get that it's just completely irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact you actually have to *hit* something in the first place. Then you gain CA - against all targets minding (effectively). But this doesn't really help when you want CA on the first attack - which is why there are numerous far superior options (that can then maintain CA all day long easier).

I think the thing you are really missing here is that the CA is independant of who you are currently attacking.

Personally when I compare it with other conditional at-wills, this power comes off as just plain awful.

With Wintertouched / Lasting Frost, you gain combat advantage when attacking someone you hit the previous round.

In fairness this is a decent point, but ignores that what you're doing is ripping that target to pieces very quickly (+5 damage bonus!). Not to mention that this isn't just you who can exploit it: Anyone else with a cold at-will or power can equally get some benefit out of it. So not only is this a better combination, but it makes you a better team player while still being more destructive than your regular paladin.

While an at-will that gives you CA, if you happen to hit is extremely meh.

I don't think there is any design principle that says an at-will HAS to be useful in all tiers of play.

No there isn't, but it doesn't really change the fact there are tons of powers that are!

but I CAN see situations where getting easy CA

It isn't easy CA when you have to hit something first and then make a second attack. That's kind of the point By the time you get your second turn, the situation may have changed that the CA bonus you have gained may be pointless or you would have been able to get CA anyway. It is an extremely weak benefit compared to other options. But again, I have a distinct feeling blackguards might end up stuck with it!

There are plenty of at-wills in the game that are marginal for most builds, and maybe even only second choices for ANY build

Absolutely agree, but many of the more conditional at-wills - like Valiant Strike are amazing in their niche. Again compare this to Valiant Strike: what would YOU rather have as a power that is going to be useful only some of the time?

 

[Zaran]

Cunning Stalker is from Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms. If wizards aren't paying attention to what they've just published, we're in serious trouble. Also this book does have some feat support for cold builds and I am very interested to see what they've added.

I was talking more about the wintertouched build. I feel like if the at will works fine with essentials then that's good enough for WotC. That's why we have charging thief builds that do outrageous damage.

 

[Argyle King]

I don't understand what the minor action ability of the Utility actually does.

My servant answers a question... ok, well, what exactly does that do?

"Hey, Bob, do you think think the princess is wearing underwear?"
"I don't know, ask your servant."
"He says he can only tell us if you promise not to use your magic sword power today."

 

[Aegeri]

Whatever the DM decides he does. He's not really that useful in combat, but his out of combat roleplaying opportunities could be fantastic. Depending of course on the questions asked, if the PCs sacrificed their daily item usages and then if the DM wants to play hardball or not. I would personally let it be as useful as possible without breaking the story or feeling like a "Get out of jail free" card.

It is very much at your DMs mercy though, so if your DM is a jerk it probably is going to suck.