D&D 5E (2014) Bladesinger with a staff

[TheSword]

Just to be clear, there’s no way of getting the martial arts ability through a feat? Taking a level out of any full spellcasting class is always painful.

Plus ironically having a level of monk is only gonna make me want to push Wis more for the Wis to AC

 

[TheSword]

I find the metamagic feat from Tasha’s fascinating. Being able to cast a spell as a bonus, and attack, and cast a cantrip is very good. Even if you are limited to the number of times per day = to feats taken.

 

[Maxperson]

I just find it amusing that a guy named TheSword wants to make a Bladesinger that uses a staff.

 

[ph0rk]

First, that any fighter in the party will probably have acquired a much more powerful magic weapon by then which would boost their damage considerably

to make up for a 14 point deficit? A flametongue would do that, but the bladesinger could have a flametongue, too. The bladesinger is getting three strikes, here - just like the fighter is, and they have a better damage bonus than the fighter (+10 instead of +5), and can lay cantrip damage on top of that.

Its a reasonable assumption that if the DM will change the rules to allow the bladesinger to dexify and PAM a stave, they'll give them nice magical ones, too.

And second, since the bladesinger is indeed still a wizard... by 14th level there's always a good possibility that the character at that point has begun using their attack rounds to cast spells for damage or other wizardly control purposes, rather than still weapon attacking each and every round. Thus the bladesinger's melee damage is no longer is as important to him as often as it might have been at a lower level. At which point trying to compare the bladesinger to any other warrior in the party ends up not being that useful.

You're right - they're still a wizard. The class with arguably the most options and versatility in the game, only in this case with a subclass that already has great at-will damage has even better at-will damage. Good AC, tons of slots for shield and absorb elements, and Song of Defense. It is a strong subclass, and this is a straight damage upgrade for it - just as it already got one (the TCoE cantrip/attack change). It was good before, it's great now, and it doesn't need more.

In this case the bladesinger can absolutely hang with the fighter, blow the rogue out of the water (with at-will damage, too), and still do all their fun wizard stuff; and because of how PAM works there's no conflict with somatic components and dual wielding to get that bonus action attack, nor is there any startup time like there would be with Melf's Minute Meteors or Crown of Stars (and they don't have to spend any resources, either, other than bladesong). And all of that is before considering how easy it is for a bladesinger to gain advantage relative to a fighter.

It is a strong archetype for a strong class - and this is a buff that interacts with the subclass's strengths in a strong positive way.

 

[TwoSix]

There's 2 different issues here. Simply reskinning a rapier into a 1d8 B weapon and calling it a staff is obviously no big deal.

Synergizing PAM with a Dex-based option that can then be used with Bladesinger (a strong subclass of a strong class) is a different kettle of fish, though. Doing that should require some sacrifice, either a dip or a 2nd feat. (Compare this to Revenant Blade from Eberron.)

 

[JPL]

I love staffsingers, especially if you think of it as just an arcanist martial art. Sages and various minor magic-users learn the basics of staff fighting, and a few melee-friendly cantrips, the same way a modern-day desk jockey might take a self-defense class or do a little tai chi or Tae-bo to stay fit. A PC might think of himself first and foremost as a scholar, who keeps getting dragged into "adventures" and continues to progress in his mastery just because he keeps getting into fights.

Might tie it into the monks of Azuth, actually. Monk + Sage + Magic Initiate feat (bladesinger cantrips and maybe Shield?) + a cool stick. Always shouts out the name of the technique he's using, and it's Dr. Strange-style gibberish.

Having said that . . . although bladesinger reads as more of a Dex-based class, I guess I'd just leave the rules as they are, and let the player figure out whether they want to do in terms of prioritizing Strength v. Dex.

 

[Weiley31]

I like the idea of a Bladesinger using a bladed staff ala Darth Maul or Sanada Yukimura's brother in Samurai Warriors 4. And lets not forget the Bladestaff weapon from Dragon Age 2, that was ONLY usable by Mages.

Staff of Parthalan - Dragon Age Wiki (fandom.com)

 

[DEFCON 1]

to make up for a 14 point deficit? A flametongue would do that, but the bladesinger could have a flametongue, too. The bladesinger is getting three strikes, here - just like the fighter is, and they have a better damage bonus than the fighter (+10 instead of +5), and can lay cantrip damage on top of that.

Its a reasonable assumption that if the DM will change the rules to allow the bladesinger to dexify and PAM a stave, they'll give them nice magical ones, too.

Not going to disagree with you on most of your points, but at least in terms of the quote above, I might suggest that if we assume the DM has been on point in allowing the bladesinger to do the PAM thing and keep things working for 14 levels... that the DM would also be able to recognize whether or not the character ended up overshadowing the other warriors in the game. At which point they'd know enough not to give the bladesingers a powerful magical melee quarterstaff too.

While the DM could give powerful magical melee weapons to both the wizard and the fighter, I'd be willing to bet that said DM would know what would be necessary to keep all the characters in the party relatively balanced with each other (both in terms of power and spotlight time), and thus would not admit things into the game that would throw that balance off. That would be my hunch.

 

[ph0rk]

I might suggest that if we assume the DM has been on point in allowing the bladesinger to do the PAM thing and keep things working for 14 levels...

I don't think it is necessarily the case that the DM will allow this and balance it appropriately.

Rather, any DM that considers allowing dex+pam staves without a hefty drawback probably makes poor balance choices across the board.

 

[JPL]

Yeah, I guess I'd have no objection to a lighter staff that's a finesse weapon, but I would be reluctant to set that work with PAM.

I'd just work up a magic staff that uses Int instead of Str. You could sell a lot of those!