Blindsense versus Mirror Image

[isoChron]

If blindsense is based of sound, it is most likely sonar, which would work fine on Mirror Image, as the sound would go straight through the images and only reflect off the actual caster.

That's what's covered by blindSIGHT as I see it.

Blindsense:
you hear the feet shuffling over the ground and the breathing of the wizard;
you smell his sweat and what he ate last hour (as scent);
you feel his steps beating the ground (if you are in direct contact with the ground)
you even may feel the air stiring around when he moves.

But as I understand the rules this gives away only the 5-feet square in which the wizard stands. It does still suffer from a 50% miss chance due to total concealment. That's not better than closing your eyes vs. a mirror imaged wizard because you already see in which 5-feet square he is in.

Just my interpretation of blindsense vs. blindsight.

 

[Saeviomagy]

If blindsense is based of sound, it is most likely sonar, which would work fine on Mirror Image, as the sound would go straight through the images and only reflect off the actual caster.

Having sound reflect off an illusion correctly is not really that different to having light reflect off it correctly.

 

[Liquidsabre]

So if you can determine which one is real, you know until the next time the caster moves...

Yes, but the real question is: "Does the familiar have enough time to relay which image is real and is there enough time for the master to react?"

 

[Liquidsabre]

Unfortunately this brings us to the point where blindsense is problematic. If a creature's blindsense is due to acute hearing, then it cannot pick out a mirror imaged opponent. If it's due to acute smell, then it can.

I imagine it's a combination of whetever acute senses the creature has, it's abstracted, so it could be the feel of wind on the face, heat sensing, smell, hearing, etc. and blindsense would be a combination of whatever the creature possesses.

However, since hearing is unhelpful with Mirror Image we can say that not all senses are available to the creature with the ability, and ask for a pin-point roll (made with the remaining acute senses the creature possesses) as I suggested.

Yea, the whole close your eyes and the sound bit no longer works strikes me as weird too.

But as I understand the rules this gives away only the 5-feet square in which the wizard stands. It does still suffer from a 50% miss chance due to total concealment. That's not better than closing your eyes vs. a mirror imaged wizard because you already see in which 5-feet square he is in.

Absolutely right.

Problems only arise for folk who close their eyes when fighting multiple opponents and losing the dex versus them as well. It's a good give/take sort of decision in a larger combat.

 

[Thanee]

These figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you.

So, as I understand this, they do not have to be in the same 5' square.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, as I understand this, they do not have to be in the same 5' square.

Right. The FAQ says something like "For simplicity, it's easiest to consider them as being in the same square", but that certainly not required by the language of the spell.

Given the way the spell also says they 'remain in a cluster', I tend to think of it as fairly Brownian motion... it's theoretically possible for all the images to end up strung in a line, 5 feet apart, but the odds are severely against it actually happening

-Hyp.

 

[Thanee]

About the accuracy of Blindsense...

You do not need any ability like this, to just close your eyes and attack the square, if the images are close enough together (otherwise it should be fairly easy to identify the real one this way, I guess). You'll have the same 50% miss chance.

So, I suppose there should be some advantage to actually having the ability to sense the real caster in there, or not?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Raven Crowking]

Blindsense: "Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see. The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature."

In this case, with multiple mirror images and distinguishing the real image, I'd have the familiar make an avg difficulty spot or listen check to accurately pin-point which image (especially when such images can be very close to one another). The difficulty with relaying said info is both an amusing and problematic situation however:

Psuedodragon: "There!"
Wizard: "Where!?"
Psd: "To your left, to your left!"
Wiz: "Aha!"
Psd: "No, your other left!"
Wiz: "Damn images, which one now, he moved?
Psd: Third one from the right I think and slightly off-center to...no wait, he's moving again, he's moving! There! The one that's pointing and casting, er, the second from the left now!"
Wiz: "&*%#@!!"

With images constantly shifting in combat it would be difficult for anyone to really pin-point the true image and relay this info to someone else. It'd be better for the Wiz to charge the Psuedodragon with a touch spell and have it go after the true image instead or just attack the true image so the Wiz could see which one.

Sorry about repeating the entire quote just to say that I like this ruling, but I do. If I was a PC in a game where this happened, I'd be having a blast.

RC

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Well, they only shift when the caster moves, to merge with and split off from an image.

So if you can determine which one is real, you know until the next time the caster moves...

D&D combat presumes that a Medium combatant is continuously moving within a 5' square. Even flatfooted combatants.

 

[Hypersmurf]

D&D combat presumes that a Medium combatant is continuously moving within a 5' square. Even flatfooted combatants.

"While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confounded."

'Moving' in this sense appears to me to refer to 'travelling from one square to another square'.

Remember, in 3E, you provoked an AoO for 'moving within a threatened area'. But even though you might be presumed to be 'continuously moving within a 5' square', that wasn't 'moving within a threatened area', until you actually left a square.

Certainly the way I read it, if the caster is identified (someone hits him, for example), and then on his turn, he chooses to, for example, cast a one round spell without moving, he doesn't merge with and split off from any figments, and people still know which one he is. To take advantage of the confusion of the images, you have to move.

-Hyp.