Blindsight plus darkness -- unsalvageably broken?

[Wippit Guud]

How about...

"Vision granted by blindsight is sound-based, and negated by silence spell"

Can also add a damage increase from sonic attacks while in effect.

 

[Pielorinho]

[edit: yoinked comments deserve yoinked responses -- it's only fair!]

 

[Nareau]

Being the player who used these spells...

There are a few more benefits to it:
People can't hide from me (no rogues sneaking up on this cleric!)
I can effectively protect my fallen/stunned/disabled allies (when I see them go down, I hustle over there and lay on the healing)
The Darkness obeys my whims (I cast it on a medallion around my neck--we ruled that it's a move-equivalent action to pop that necklace under my shirt, negating the darkness)

Part of this combination that was so effective was the use of the Fly spell. It raised my speed from 20 to 90, which allowed me to take the darkness wherever I wanted.

And it helps protect me against Dispel Magic. See, I was severely buffed for this battle. If the enemy had been able to target me with a Dispel, I'd be screwed. But in this scenario, they would have had to do Dispel either the area, or the Darkness spell. Either way, my buffing spells stay up.

Not to mention that the Darkness effectively Blinds my enemies. I get the +2 bonus to hit, they lose their Dex bonus against me, they can only move at half-speed, all their targets get total concealment, etc.

Just imagine how awful this combination would be if we had a rogue in the party...

As to your suggested nerfs...

I think it would be reasonable to say that it does work like sonar. People can hide from it by ducking behind obstructions (maybe I'd get some kind of circumstance bonus to my spot checks). Silence negates it. It can't see through walls.

1) Blindsight is fooled by illusion magic
2) The vision granted by Blindsight is blocked by magical darkness.
3) The vision granted by blindsight is blocked by opaque objects.
4) Blindsight's duration is reduced to 1 minute/level.

Any one of these would be a pretty darn big nerf. A combination of them might make the spell nigh unto useless. If I can't see invisible people, and I can't see through a simple Darkness spell...then what've I got? A Darkvision that can see through Obscuring Mist, and allows me to succeed at Spot and Listen checks.

Another potential nerf that might be kinda cool: Keep the spell as it is, except that it blinds the caster beyond 30' for the duration. That would severely limit its use, especially in battles like that last one (where we were fighting on a large, open battlefield, with lots of moving around).

 

[Pielorinho]

Re: Being the player who used these spells...

Well, I know that my suggested nerfs might make the spell darn near useless -- but after the last battle, my initial thought was to yank the spell entirely. As it is, I want it to be something that you'd only take in specific circumstances, not a spell that's generally superior to any other 4th-level spell. And it definitely shouldn't be superior to True Seeing.

Any nerf to the spell that keeps it in the game will remove its ability to function (with darkness) as true seeing and improved invisibility. Limiting the subject's sight radius to 30' won't accomplish this: the subject will still have improved invisibility, and will still have True Seeing within 30'.

I may rule a little weirdly: blindsight requires vision, but works on a different spectrum. It's fooled by glamers, but not by figments. Magical darkness negates it, as does any opaque barrier. It lasts for 1 hour/level.

Its use becomes very limited, but that's as it should be: it's better than darkvision, but worse that true seeing.

Daniel

 

[Wippit Guud]

The easiest thing would be to rule that, since the other senses are enhanced, the recipient is more subject to sensory attacks other that sighted attacks - stinking cloud, shatter, earthquake (depending on smell, hearing, and touch).

 

[BMF]

I think you are obsessing about "game balance."

You didn't like a tactic your players used so now you want to tell them, "you can't do that."

What do you do about the flying, Imp. invisible, stoneskined, hasted wizard??

I think you should think more about ways around it *in game* rather than just changing the rules to suit your arbitrary opinion of "balance."

 

[Pielorinho]

I think you are obsessing about "game balance."

You're right; game balance is important to me. The combination, as I stated above, is more powerful than two fifth-and-fourth-level spells designed to accomplish what these two accomplish as side-effects. I have no intention of keeping this in my campaign, and am not interested in debating that point; I'm only interested in figuring out what rules-changes to make to blindsight so that it can remain in my game.

Daniel

[edited to remove a lot of unnecessary snideness]

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Nerf all you want but that blindsight/darkness tactic isn't very powerful.

It can works fine, but under normal cirumstances it's less efficient than a single improved invisibility spell.

1-You only see up to 30 feet. You are effectively blind beyond that distance. You can't cast most spell past 30 feet. Heck, you might even have trouble finding your opponents if they have the gal to move around.

Not so with an invisible character.

2-You betray your position with the globe. Not so with an invisible character. Any area spell can easily be used against you.

3-Any fighter with blindfight (I highly recommend this feat) can simply run in the globe and engage you without much trouble. Your spell combo only affords you protection similar to that of a blur spell in these circumstances. It's not nearly as easy to do so with an invisible character.

4-Dispel magic. Imagine this result; Blindsight is dispelled but not darkness!

5-Fly. I can imagine a flying sorcerer laughing hysterically as he flies 60 feet above the ground and launch fireball after fireball in the darkness dude who can't even see him!

6-No one to watch your back. His comrades have to stay out of the darkness.

etc.

*shrug*

No offense but if you find this combo overpowering you are in for some nasty surprise before too long.

 

[Omegium]

In our party, we have the same problem. We had battles completely dominated by a cleric with such a combination, and new wizards take blindsight EVERY time, something what is possible since it has such an extreme duration. That means it's overpowered.
And recently I discovered you don't have to make spot and listen checks within 30 ft. It is superior to trueseeing now, while it is 3 lvls lower (for a wiz) and one for a cleric. And wait until you get the enlarged enlarged blindsight.

I thought of changing the spell next time I dm, to this:
It gives you the vision of a bat. You gain the possibility to hear and to create ultrasonic sounds. You get a -5 penalty to spot checks, since you can't distinguish color. You get a -10 penalty to listen and spot checks while in an area of ultrasonic sounds (a cave of bats, someone near who blows a dogswhistle). You can't hear in magical silence. You can't see through opague objects (but how much non opague objects do you encounter anyway?)

I think this version is still powerful, but more in line with the spell lvl. Another good nerf is just to reduce the duration to 1 min/lvl

 

[reapersaurus]

I'll even forget in advance if you bring up the blindsight feat from Masters of the Wild, or bring up any other ways to duplicate this.

Daniel

What's the blindsight feat do?
Seriously.