Blink automatically allows sneak attacks, what?

[rushlight]

I don't get how Blink grants sneak attacks.

According to the spell:

If the attack is capable of striking ethereal creatures, the miss chance is only 20% (for concealment).

Followed by:

Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.

That means that both parties are effectively granted with concealment.

Next comes the Sneak Attack description from the Rogue class:

The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Ergo, a Blinking rogue can not sneak attack. I'd say that popping in and out of a plane would not qualify as "seeing a target well enough". You cannot time your attacks (thus the miss chance) and so you cannot time your attacks for a specific target.

 

[Caliban]

I don't get how Blink grants sneak attacks.

That means that both parties are effectively granted with concealment.

The miss chance for the blinking attacker is not a concealment miss chance. Only a concealment miss chance prevents the rogue from sneak attacking (because he can't see the vital points well enough to target them).

The blinking attack can see his target just fine, there's just a 20% chance that his weapon is on the ethereal plane when the blow actually lands. But if it does hit, it's a sneak attack (barring See Invisible or Uncanny Dodge).

 

[Storyteller01]

The miss chance for the blinking attacker is not a concealment miss chance. Only a concealment miss chance prevents the rogue from sneak attacking (because he can't see the vital points well enough to target them).

The blinking attack can see his target just fine, there's just a 20% chance that his weapon is on the ethereal plane when the blow actually lands. But if it does hit, it's a sneak attack (barring See Invisible or Uncanny Dodge).

Or look at it from another stand point:

I'm a rogue blinking in and out of the etherial. I can see my target just fine, but he can't see me 20% of the time (which way did he go, George? which way did he go...?). I can just stick the dagger in him while etherial, and wait for it to materialize (since most armor means squat in this situation). He might have moved, but that's the price you pay for this tactic.

As for timing, I'm surprised sources haven't developed feats or PrC's to capitalize on this. I've only seen one, and it's first level ability was removing the character's 20% miss chance penalty...

 

[rushlight]

The blinking attack can see his target just fine, there's just a 20% chance that his weapon is on the ethereal plane when the blow actually lands. But if it does hit, it's a sneak attack (barring See Invisible or Uncanny Dodge).

I beg to differ. According to the DMG, page 151:

"The Material Plane itself is visible from the Ethereal Plane, but it appears muted and indistinct, its colors blurring into each other and its edges turning fuzzy."

It's clear that looking from the Ethereal Plane into the Material isn't the same as looking across a clear room. It's rather like looking through a murky glass. Again, sneak attack clearly says you need clear vision to aim precisely. It's very clear you don't have that. Shadowy illumination foils sneak attacks, so why shouldn't looking through a murky glass?

Also, the reference in the spell says one side has concealment, and "likewise your own attacks..." which implies that just like one side has concealment, so too does the other. And both have a 20% miss chance.

Of course, you can choose to make Blink the uber sneak attack spell. But that's your decision - not the rules.

 

[Caliban]

I beg to differ. According to the DMG, page 151:

"The Material Plane itself is visible from the Ethereal Plane, but it appears muted and indistinct, its colors blurring into each other and its edges turning fuzzy."

But you are lining up your attack while you are on the material plane, when you can see him clearly. And you can still track them on the ethereal plane, so you never lose their position.

It's clear that looking from the Ethereal Plane into the Material isn't the same as looking across a clear room. It's rather like looking through a murky glass. Again, sneak attack clearly says you need clear vision to aim precisely. It's very clear you don't have that. Shadowy illumination foils sneak attacks, so why shouldn't looking through a murky glass?

Because you aren't attacking from the ethereal plane, you are attacking from the prime material plane.

Also, the reference in the spell says one side has concealment, and "likewise your own attacks..." which implies that just like one side has concealment, so too does the other. And both have a 20% miss chance.

It specifically states that the attackers miss chance is from going ethereal when the blow lands. Not from concealment.

Of course, you can choose to make Blink the uber sneak attack spell. But that's your decision - not the rules.

It is absolutely the rules. You can choose to change the rules to suit yourself, but that's your decsion.

 

[rushlight]

But you are lining up your attack while you are on the material plane, when you can see him clearly. And you can still track them on the ethereal plane, so you never lose their position.

By that logic, you should be able to sneak attack in shadowy illumination. You are a) on the material plane, b) you can see him just as clearly (perhaps moreso since you aren't blinking back and forth between planes) and c) you never lose his position.

But that's not legal. If something futzes with your ability to see clearly (and Blink obviously does) then you can't sneak attack. Those are the sneak attack rules, and Blink doesn't change that.

Perhaps if Blink had a provision stating that it allowed perfectly clear vision from the Ethereal to the Matieral, I'd agree.

 

[KarinsDad]

By that logic, you should be able to sneak attack in shadowy illumination. You are a) on the material plane, b) you can see him just as clearly (perhaps moreso since you aren't blinking back and forth between planes) and c) you never lose his position.

But that's not legal. If something futzes with your ability to see clearly (and Blink obviously does) then you can't sneak attack. Those are the sneak attack rules, and Blink doesn't change that.

Perhaps if Blink had a provision stating that it allowed perfectly clear vision from the Ethereal to the Matieral, I'd agree.

Well first off, it is debatable whether you can see clearly into the Material Plane from the Ethereal one.

DMG page 151: "While it is possible to see into the Material Plane from the Ethereal Plane, the Ethereal Plane is usually invisible to those on the Material Plane.".


But even if you cannot, one reason the designers did NOT make the miss chance from the ethereal plane a concealment one might be because the Rogue does not swing when he is on the ethereal plane, he swings when he is back on the material plane. But, there is a slim chance that he might pop back into the ethereal plane before he is successful.


Think about it carefully. The Rogue blinks back and forth, confusing his opponents. At the same time, he confuses himself. His opponents are invisible half of the time (assuming he cannot see them from the Ethereal Plane), just like he is invisible half of the time to them.

If you read the flavor text of the spell, they should have a 50% miss chance of hitting him AND he should have a 50% miss chance for hitting them.

From the flavor text of what happens (blinking in and out of the material plane), there should be NO differences between his attacks against opponents and their attacks against him. He doesn't see them half the time (assuming he cannot see from the Ethereal Plane), they do not see him half of the time.

However, that would make for a very boring spell and one which gives no advantage to the target of the spell.

Hence, you cannot use the "he is concealed" argument since it is not a concealment miss chance. That's why the rules are written as is (when they are well written), so that it is clear what is allowed and what is not allowed.

 

[Storyteller01]

Shadowy illumination physically blocks perceptions (parts of the body are seen, others are not), especially when both the lightsource and the target move around.

even with fuzzy perception, you can aim for that column between the main body and the head on top. It's also easy to aim for the inner thigh, abdominal wall (albeit, that's a slow way to go...), base of the skull (where the head stops and the neck starts), etc

A piercing weapon may need precision targeting (even the, it had better be the size of a hat pin), but a slashing attack in these areas is all but guaranteed to kill. It's made even more lethal by the fact that, while you can't see the rogue all the time, He can track you continually.

 

[HeavyG]

Of course. The designers cannot think of everything. Sooner or later, someone will ask Andy about it and he will add the exception to the 3.5 FAQ. In the meantime, talk to your DM about rule zeroing it.

No need. We already agree on how it works.

 

[ARandomGod]

Oh I see, house rule.

But isn't it a very dangerous house rule? Someone in Ethereal Plane can strike someone in Matereal Plane and unless the opponent also has a ghost touch weapon or force spells, he is almost invulnerable.

No, it's more a rule on the nature of blinking than the nature of the ghost touch enhancement.

A ghost is something that can manifest and attack. That's exactly what the blink is doing, sending you away, manifesting you randomly. The whole interaction of ghostliness and etherealness etcetera is very ... poorly written. This ruling actually makes it better (IMO obviously) because it gives a nice counter to the blink ability.

Well, he admits that it is disputed, so even as a house rule not everybody is agreeing.

The Auld Grump

By "disputed" I mean more that the "according to RAW" is disputed. I don't think RAW is very clearly written on this subject, so this is my interpretation of RAW. Which is lightly different than houserules, as a house rule agrees that it's different than RAW. But everyone I'm playing with agrees with the rule I stated, so it's not disputed in that way.

Also, the Ring of Blinking is only caster level 5. It takes a standard action to activate and only lasts 5 rounds. Thus, for one action, it gives you 5 rounds of pretty awesome defense and 4 rounds of offense (it stops right before your 5th round of attacks).

I don't think that's how it works... it's not an item which casts the spell on you, it's a continual item, so that the effect is "on" or "off". When I have a character with blink he usually just keeps it on all the time. Very nice against those surprise attacks. Sure, you move slower, but get something to counteract that and it's all good.

I beg to differ. According to the DMG, page 151:

"The Material Plane itself is visible from the Ethereal Plane, but it appears muted and indistinct, its colors blurring into each other and its edges turning fuzzy."

It's clear that looking from the Ethereal Plane into the Material isn't the same as looking across a clear room. It's rather like looking through a murky glass. Again, sneak attack clearly says you need clear vision to aim precisely. It's very clear you don't have that. Shadowy illumination foils sneak attacks, so why shouldn't looking through a murky glass?

Also, the reference in the spell says one side has concealment, and "likewise your own attacks..." which implies that just like one side has concealment, so too does the other. And both have a 20% miss chance.

Of course, you can choose to make Blink the uber sneak attack spell. But that's your decision - not the rules.

Definitely not. Read the spell description, the miss chance is definitely not from concealment. And the "concealment" you get is from the partial invisibility. The "fuzzy" statement regarding the ethereal plane is flavor text. Sure, you can house rule that all you want, if you don't like the effect, I see no issue with houseruling it away. But the actual rule definitely give sneak with this.