Blink automatically allows sneak attacks, what?

[rushlight]

For arguements sake, let's assume that you Blink back and forth at a rate of once per second. Therefore, I know I will be on the Material Plane for 1 second, then I will Blink and be on the Ethereal for 1 second. Whether I am able to pinpoint a vital spot and strike at it within that 1 second window is not a matter of KNOWING I have a one second window, it is a matter of reaction, of reflexes, of speed. And that is where the 20% miss chance comes in. 20% of the time, you just aren't quick enough to pinpoint and strike the vital WHILE on the Material Plane.

Ah, but your logic falls apart when put into the context of the game.

Let's keep your assumption, and add that the rogue in question is lower level, and has only a single attack per round.

According to your interpretation, he could make 6 attacks per round - since there's 6 seconds in a round. Assuming he was good at his timing, that's 3 on the material plane. Yet, by the rules, he can only do one. D&D is an abstract system - to get that one attack the rogue must spend at least half the round trying to land a blow. Or all the round if he chose a full-attack. That means at least part of the time he'll be on the Ethereal plane - where his vision is obscured - when he's aiming his attack. This game isn't divided into seconds. If the character suffers an effect longer than "instantaneous" but lasting less than 6 seconds, then it takes effect during his whole round. Not a sub-round.

Also, I discovered this little gem:

PHB, pg 152, under Concealment:

"Concealment encompasses all circumstances where nothing physically blocks a blow or shot but where something interferes with an attacker's accuracy. Typically, concealment is provided by fog, smoke, shadowy area, darkness, tall grass, foliage, or magical effects that make it difficult to pinpoint a target's location."

Does Blink physically block the rogue's swing? No. Can it interere with his accuracy? Yep - he can fail his miss chance. This is a circumstance where nothing physically blocks a blow or shot but where something interferes with an attacker's accuracy. That means it's concealment, since it "encompasses all circumstances where nothing physically blocks a blow or shot but where something interferes with an attacker's accuracy."

 

[rushlight]

As to why the rogue gets sneak attacks every round, try getting a friend and jumping around together in a dark room that has a strobe light set up to an interval of about one second. See how hard it is to track where your friend is? Now, imagine if you were fighting your friend instead of just jumping around. That would be pretty tricky, right? Now, imagine if your friend had darkvision, and could see just fine whether the strobe was on or off, but could only hit you when the strobe was on.

Ahh, but to accuratly represent the situation, you must also assume that even though one person can see when the light is off, he can only see indistinct shapes and colors - yet he needs to aim for a spot on the target just an inch or so wide.

For effect, try squinting and throwing darts at the same time. You'll be lucky to hit the board - much less the bull's eye.

 

[KarinsDad]

Ah, but your logic falls apart when put into the context of the game.

Let's keep your assumption, and add that the rogue in question is lower level, and has only a single attack per round.

According to your interpretation, he could make 6 attacks per round - since there's 6 seconds in a round. Assuming he was good at his timing, that's 3 on the material plane. Yet, by the rules, he can only do one. D&D is an abstract system - to get that one attack the rogue must spend at least half the round trying to land a blow. Or all the round if he chose a full-attack. That means at least part of the time he'll be on the Ethereal plane - where his vision is obscured. This game isn't divided into seconds. If the character suffers an effect longer than "instantaneous" but lasting less than 6 seconds, then it takes effect during his whole round. Not a sub-round.

Wrong again, but thanks for playing.

Even when you get one actual roll for an attack per round, attacks are considered a series of feints, parries, attacks, etc. in DND.

Each time he attacks on the material plane, he can see just fine.

Your argument here is like stating that a Mirror Image image sometimes gets in front of a Wizard and hence gives his opponent concealment.

"at least part of the time his image(s) will be in front of him where his vision is obscured".

His vision being obscured while on the Ethereal Plane is no different than his vision being obscured by his own Mirror Images. The concept is ludicrous in a rules discussion.

Your entire premise is not based in rules.

Also, I discovered this little gem:

PHB, pg 152, under Concealment:

"Concealment encompasses all circumstances where nothing physically blocks a blow or shot but where something interferes with an attacker's accuracy. Typically, concealment is provided by fog, smoke, shadowy area, darkness, tall grass, foliage, or magical effects that make it difficult to pinpoint a target's location."

Does Blink physically block the rogue's swing? No. Can it interere with his accuracy? Yep - he can fail his miss chance. This is a circumstance where nothing physically blocks a blow or shot but where something interferes with an attacker's accuracy. That means it's concealment, since it "encompasses all circumstances where nothing physically blocks a blow or shot but where something interferes with an attacker's accuracy."

hehehe

This keeps getting better and better.

Now, although you KNOW from reading the Blink spell that it does not give a Concealment miss chance, you are attempting to prove that it IS a Concealment miss chance.

"Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike."

The spell TELLS you that it is not a concealment miss chance and it also tells you WHY you miss and you still stick to your failing logic.

Talk about someone whose logic is falling apart.

 

[rushlight]

Wrong again, but thanks for playing.

Even when you get one actual roll for an attack per round, attacks are considered a series of feints, parries, attacks, etc. in DND.

That was exactly my point. The attacking action takes up more time than the rogue spends on the Material plane. And people in front of other people never have an effect, unless they are in melee, so your retort is uselss.

Now, although you KNOW from reading the Blink spell that it does not give a Concealment miss chance, you are attempting to prove that it IS a Concealment miss chance.

"Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike."

The spell TELLS you that it is not a concealment miss chance and it also tells you WHY you miss and you still stick to your failing logic.

Please find in the SRD where Blink states "This miss chance is NOT a concealment miss chance" You're beginning to hallucinate your own spell text. It doesn't say one way or the other. Only that it's a "20% miss chance". If it said specifically "This is concealment" or "No, this is not concealment" then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

So far, I've found mulitiple valid, rules-based reasons to shoot down the munchkin-monkey-blinking-rogue-of-death. How many more do you need?

 

[KarinsDad]

Please find in the SRD where Blink states "This miss chance is NOT a concealment miss chance" You're beginning to hallucinate your own spell text. It doesn't say one way or the other. Only that it's a "20% miss chance". If it said specifically "This is concealment" or "No, this is not concealment" then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

So far, I've found mulitiple valid, rules-based reasons to shoot down the munchkin-monkey-blinking-rogue-of-death. How many more do you need?

I need ones based on rules.

First off, you are totally wrong. For a miss chance to be due to concealment, it has to say so. The spell says that it is due to blinking out.

Secondly, the FAQ even answers this question.

"Miss chances that don't rely on concealment, such as the miss chance from the blink spell, don't prevent sneak attacks. Concealment negates sneak attacks by interfering with your ability to study the foe's anatomy and place an attack in precisely the right place. The blink spell does not interfere with your ability to make a precise attack"


The FAQ disagrees with you. The rules disagree with you. Every single poster here disagrees with you. If anyone is hallucinating, it is you.

Temporary visual distractions (such as blinking onto the Ethereal Plane or having your Mirror Image move in front of you) do not create concealment miss chances, nor do they prevent sneak attacks. This is all house rules that you made up.

You argument is specious, null, and void. You have zero rules to back up a theory that temporary in-round visual distractions prevent sneak attacks.

 

[Caliban]

Blink says that you get a 20% miss chance, and it states that it is from something other than concealment. If it was a miss chance from concealment, it would say so, as it does when referring to the miss chance for opponents who attack you.

The rogue can see perfectly clearly when he's on the material plane.

It's while the rogue is on the material plane that he lines up his shot and takes it, because that's when he can see his target clearly. And even when he's ethereal, he can still track his target's position.

20% of the time, he goes ethereal before his shot lands. 80% of the time he remains on the Prime Material plane long enough to line up his shot and complete the attack. So the entire time, he had a clear view of his opponent.

It's really not all that complicated.

 

[Elephant]

I beg to differ. According to the DMG, page 151:

"The Material Plane itself is visible from the Ethereal Plane, but it appears muted and indistinct, its colors blurring into each other and its edges turning fuzzy."

It's clear that looking from the Ethereal Plane into the Material isn't the same as looking across a clear room. It's rather like looking through a murky glass. Again, sneak attack clearly says you need clear vision to aim precisely. It's very clear you don't have that. Shadowy illumination foils sneak attacks, so why shouldn't looking through a murky glass?

Also, the reference in the spell says one side has concealment, and "likewise your own attacks..." which implies that just like one side has concealment, so too does the other. And both have a 20% miss chance.

Of course, you can choose to make Blink the uber sneak attack spell. But that's your decision - not the rules.

Keep in mind that he's blinking VERY RAPIDLY between clear vision and murky, shadowy vision. Think of it as a strobe light with dim constant illumination also being present.

 

[Storyteller01]

Try this: Look at someone through a layer of thick plastic (within 2 - 5 feet, the range most one handed melee weapons). Can you still target a vital area?

If it's that ambiguous, check the results for yourself...

 

[Elephant]

Try this: Look at someone through a layer of thick plastic (within 2 - 5 feet, the range most one handed melee weapons). Can you still target a vital area?

If it's that ambiguous, check the results for yourself...

You forgot to mention that the plastic is going up and down very rapidly, like a strobe light.

It's not like the rogue has a constant impediment to their vision. And as the spell says, the miss chance is due to the unfortunate circumstance of mistiming a strike, such that you go ethereal just as your weapon would have hit your target.

 

[RigaMortus]

That was exactly my point. The attacking action takes up more time than the rogue spends on the Material plane.

If that was your point, then I take it you are finally agreeing with us?

And people in front of other people never have an effect, unless they are in melee, so your retort is uselss.

Say what? If there is someone between me and my target, my target would have cover. No matter if I am attacking with a melee (reach) weapon, or a ranged weapon.

Does Blink physically block the rogue's swing? No. Can it interere with his accuracy? Yep - he can fail his miss chance. This is a circumstance where nothing physically blocks a blow or shot but where something interferes with an attacker's accuracy. That means it's concealment, since it "encompasses all circumstances where nothing physically blocks a blow or shot but where something interferes with an attacker's accuracy."

But he would not be failing because of "lack of" accuracy. He could very well have accurately placed his blade into the head of his opponent. Unfortunately he (and his blade) are ethereal at this point, so the blade does no damage, not do to being inaccurate, but do to not being a solid material item.

Lack of accuracy would be him rolling below his targets AC to begin with, before he ever gets to the 20% miss chance portion of the spell's effect.