Blink, Ghost Touch weapons and Sneak attack

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blink, Ghost Touch weapons and Sneak attack

The real problem is that it gives the impression that you could use a ghost touch weapon to attack people without a miss chance while you are blinking, which isn't actually true.

It only gives that impression to people who don't carefully parse the conditions in the spell

But if everyone read everything carefully, this would be a much quieter forum

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blink, Ghost Touch weapons and Sneak attack

Thus, the spell seems indicate that a ghost touch weapon can hit you, even though you have gone ethereal, even though that is not an ability of ghost touch weapons.

Still not reliably, though. Someone with a Ghost Touch weapon can't completely negate the miss chance like someone with a Force Effect can.

So there's something about Blink that's different to, for example, a Readied Ethereal Jaunt.

I'm still not prepared to call it a mistake until and unless it's errata'd... which, with 3.5 on the horizon, seems unlikely. Isee it as just being a quirk of the way Blink works.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blink, Ghost Touch weapons and Sneak attack

Still not reliably, though. Someone with a Ghost Touch weapon can't completely negate the miss chance like someone with a Force Effect can.

You completely negate the miss chance due to them phasing out.

You don't negate the miss chance due to not seeing them all the time. They are effectively invisible to you while they are on the ethereal plane, even though you can still hit them while they are ethereal.


However, if you can also see invisible, you have no miss chance at all, because you can hit them while they are ethereal, and you can see them while they are ethereal.

So there's something about Blink that's different to, for example, a Readied Ethereal Jaunt.

Yeah, you can't hit the Ethereal Jaunt guy at all with a Ghost Touch weapon. I'm really not sure what your point is here.

I'm still not prepared to call it a mistake until and unless it's errata'd... which, with 3.5 on the horizon, seems unlikely. Isee it as just being a quirk of the way Blink works.

-Hyp.

I wasn't really asking your opinion on it, but thanks for sharing.

If you can't see that it's confusing the properties of two different state (incorporeal and ethereal), that's your problem, not mine.

Either way, it doesn't change how the spell works, since it hasn't been errata'd. I just recognize that the spell description is fubar'ed.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blink, Ghost Touch weapons and Sneak attack

However, if you can also see invisible, you have no miss chance at all, because you can hit them while they are ethereal, and you can see them while they are ethereal.

That's right. But if you can see invisible and have a Ghost Touch weapon, you still have a 20% miss chance.

The spell isn't treating Incorporeal and Ethereal as interchangeable or identical. They have different effects, and interact differently with a Blinking target.

-Hyp.

 

[Relentless]

See this thread for a similar discussion of incorporeal and ethereal confusion.

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blink, Ghost Touch weapons and Sneak attack

That's right. But if you can see invisible and have a Ghost Touch weapon, you still have a 20% miss chance.

I was referring to someone attempting to strike a blinking target.

If you can both See Invisibile and have a Ghost touch weapon, you do not have a miss chance when attacking a blinking target (in spite of the fact that Ghost Touch weapons can't hit Ethereal creatures).

You seem to be referring to a blinking person attempting to strike a non-blinking person.

If you are under the effects of a Blink spell, see invisible is irrelevent (unless your target is actually invisible), because you can see the Material plane from the Ethereal plane. That's why you only have the 20% miss chance due to "blinking out" just before you strike. Ghost touch weapons don't allow Ethereal creatures to hit material creatures, so they won't reduce it either.

The spell isn't treating Incorporeal and Ethereal as interchangeable or identical. They have different effects, and interact differently with a Blinking target.

-Hyp.

You seem to be misunderstanding me.

The Blink spell makes you Ethereal part of the time (when you "blink out"). At no time does it make you Incorporeal.

Ghost touch weapons cannot strike Ethereal targets.

Ghost touch weapons can strike Incorporeal targets.

However, the Blink spell allows a Ghost touch weapon to hit you even if you have "blinked out".

Therefore the Blink spell is givng the "able to be hit by Ghost Touch" property to someone in the "Ethereal" state. It's confusing Ethereal with Incorporeal.

Probably the two states were identical (or nearly identical) early in the playtest, and Blink never got updated when they were changed. That's just a guess though.

You seem to saying that the Blink spell doesn't actually make you Ethereal, it instead makes you some odd mix of Ethereal and Incorporeal. That is the practical effect as written, however the spell is pretty clear in that it is only supposed to make you Ethereal.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blink, Ghost Touch weapons and Sneak attack

If you can both See Invisibile and have a Ghost touch weapon, you do not have a miss chance when attacking a blinking target (in spite of the fact that Ghost Touch weapons can't hit Ethereal creatures).

Not so.

Read the spell again.

"If the attack is capable of striking ethereal or incorporeal creatures [Condition A], the miss chance is only 20%. If the attacker can see invisible creatures, the miss chance is also only 20%. If the attacker can both see and strike ethereal creatures [Condition B], the attacker suffers no penalty."

A Ghost Touch weapon satisfies Condition A - it can strike incorporeal creatures.

A Ghost Touch weapon does not satisfy Condition B - it cannot strike ethereal creatures.

Therefore, if you can see invisible and have a Ghost Touch weapon, you still have a 20% miss chance against a Blinking target.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blink, Ghost Touch weapons and Sneak attack

Not so.

Read the spell again.

"If the attack is capable of striking ethereal or incorporeal creatures [Condition A], the miss chance is only 20%. If the attacker can see invisible creatures, the miss chance is also only 20%. If the attacker can both see and strike ethereal creatures [Condition B], the attacker suffers no penalty."

A Ghost Touch weapon satisfies Condition A - it can strike incorporeal creatures.

A Ghost Touch weapon does not satisfy Condition B - it cannot strike ethereal creatures.

Therefore, if you can see invisible and have a Ghost Touch weapon, you still have a 20% miss chance against a Blinking target.

-Hyp.

Nice try, but you know that's not what it means.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blink, Ghost Touch weapons and Sneak attack

Nice try, but you know that's not what it means.

What?

I know nothing of the sort.

It clearly specifies "Ethereal or Incorporeal" for one, and "Ethereal" for the other.

That's what the spell says, and that's how I run it as a DM.

As always, you're welcome to ignore the text of the spell if you see fit for your campaign.

But since we know that Ethereal and Incorporeal are two different states, and nothing in the spell description suggests that a Ghost Touch weapon qualifies for the "no miss chance" effect with See Invisible, the spell as written does not support it.

-Hyp.

 

[Relentless]

Hyp is correct in his literal reading of the spell.

Caliban is correct in that the spell's description is a result of faulty design or editing concerning using "incorporeal" and "ethereal" interchangably.

One way is as written.

One way is as intended.

Choose as you desire.