Blog: Background and Themes a closer look.

[Kannik]

This, on many levels, makes me do a happy dance. To finally decouple the way one deals with encounters/challenges (class: martial mastery, divine radience, arcane wrangling, etc) with who one is in the world and one's "profession" is golden. To no longer need to pick up unwanted trappings just to get a way to work in combat is a welcome change to me. And the reverse too -- a whole party of wilderness warriors can pick the "Ranger" theme/background and get the skills and abilities to live in the wilderness sucessfully, while still allowing one to be a priest, one to be a sword wielder, two to be archers, and the last who wrangles the spirits of nature. Awesome.

On the other hand, some of what's written makes me do a sad dance. If both of these are just a prechosen package of things anyone could pick, well, that's not as nifty. Built-in flavour, yes, but not as exciting. I would like to see every background and every theme have some unique ability tied to them -- it doesn't have to be powerful, just something nifty to help cement that flavour.

In my Trades and Professions supplement the trade skills give the player not necessarily more power (certainly not in combat) but plenty of interesting knowledge and interesting and creative ways of using the skill and knowledge to boost little bits of exploration, interaction and other bits of the game. That's the kind of fun I'd like to see included in Themes and Backgrounds.

Overall though, colour me intrigued and interested!

peace,

Kannik

 

[Mattachine]

That's a step in the right direction. But I still think it's a shame to 'mechanise' flavourful game elements like Background and Theme in this unimaginative way.

Of course, but non-mechanized, flavorful game elements don't really need rules, do they?

 

[hemera]

Really, I just want to play a fat lazy merchant in 5e...

You know, I did play that kit in 2e. Goddess bless Al'Qadim!

I like the idea of expanding backgrounds and themes, take the idea from 4th and build it up with ideas from 2e. I'd like to play a scholarly fighter, or a stealthy wizard, or a crazy religious zealot rogue. Holy Slayer, Altair type.

(I really liked Al'Qadim)

 

[El Mahdi]

It all sounds quite good so far. Of course though, I'll have to see how it looks in actuality, rather than just description, to know for sure. I thought 4E was going to be awesome for me also, based on description, and it ended up looking and feeling completely different than I expected. However, I'm very optimistic so far.

 

[Janaxstrus]

I'm cautiously optimistic based on my first reading.

My concern would be what appears to be the death of the skill monkey. If you only get a few skills based on your background, then feats with your "theme"...Not sure how I feel about that. I do love playing a good skillmonkey

 

[Dausuul]

Here's the core of my problem with theme-as-bundle-o'-feats. I need to understand how my character's mechanical abilities work. If my character concept isn't backed up by mechanics that match the concept, my PC won't be able to do the things my concept suggests she can do, and I will be a Sad Panda. This is a lesson most RPG players learn very quickly.

So. When I'm choosing a theme, it's not enough to read the blurb the designers put at the top, unless that blurb is clearer and more accurate than any I have ever seen in an RPG. I need to know what specific abilities the theme is giving me. If the theme consists of a list of feats, I need to read the descriptions of those feats. And if I'm choosing from a bunch of themes, I need to read the feats in all those themes if I'm to understand my options.

But at this point, why am I bothering with themes? I'm already reading the feats. Why don't I just pick some feats and be done with it?

Furthermore, the need to break down themes into interchangeable feats means that themes themselves are likely to be bland and boring. It's like the AEDU power structure in 4E. After a while, the classes start to feel all the same*. Themes ought to be to feats what Essentials was to 4E Classic--a genuine alternative. I love the idea of themes, I would gladly use themes instead of feats, but what we're seeing here is that that option doesn't exist. If you don't want feats, you can't have themes either.

[SIZE=-2]*And yes, I have played 4E extensively. This is not a hypothetical gripe.[/SIZE]

 

[DEFCON 1]

If having "unique" abilities for a particular theme is really that important to you... only offer the players a set number of the themes which don't double up on any of the same feats, and also don't allow PCs to swap feats out. A feat that only appears once across any set of themes *is* a "unique" ability.

 

[DEFCON 1]

But at this point, why am I bothering with themes? I'm already reading the feats. Why don't I just pick some feats and be done with it?

Well, it might not apply to you... but for many other players, the fluff that is attached to the mechanics actually matters.

Why else did we get so much railing by 4E players who wanted to be "fighter archers" but didn't want to use the Ranger to do so? The mechanics of the Ranger were completely applicable to playing a fighter specialized in bow... but the fluff mattered enough in that regard that they were upset they couldn't play a "Fighter", they had to play a "Ranger".

And why did any of us select Backgrounds? We could have just given ourselves an extra skill if all we cared about was the mechanics... but the fluff of the backgrounds meant enough to actually go through the effort of reading the list of them, and then selecting the one we wanted.

Yes, we could certainly strip ALL fluff away from every single aspect of the game and then layer our own fluff on top of the mechanics that remain... but what is the point? If we wanted to do that, we could play HERO System and create the entirety of the fluff ourselves.

 

[KidSnide]

Here's the core of my problem with theme-as-bundle-o'-feats. I need to understand how my character's mechanical abilities work. If my character concept isn't backed up by mechanics that match the concept, my PC won't be able to do the things my concept suggests she can do, and I will be a Sad Panda. This is a lesson most RPG players learn very quickly.

So. When I'm choosing a theme, it's not enough to read the blurb the designers put at the top, unless that blurb is clearer and more accurate than any I have ever seen in an RPG. I need to know what specific abilities the theme is giving me. If the theme consists of a list of feats, I need to read the descriptions of those feats. And if I'm choosing from a bunch of themes, I need to read the feats in all those themes in order to know what my options are.

But at this point, why am I bothering with themes? I'm already reading the feats. Why don't I just pick some feats and be done with it?

I haven't seen enough to really evaluate how well "themes as feat bundles" will work, but I can speak to the experience of some of my players.

I have seen a number of players who want/need the mechanical advantages of feats (if not too complicated), but who find the process of picking feats to be too fiddly. Like all players, they want to make decisions about their characters, but only the decisions they consider important. If you don't think a lot about the mechanics of your character (a characteristic more common in the greater community than in the subset that participate in message boards), then picking individual feats is below the level of "important" and becomes unpleasant make-work of picking through the PH (or convincing another player to pick your feats for you).

If WotC can manage the challenge of producing better balance among feats, then feat-bundle-themes can let players customize their characters at a less granular level. I recognize there is a hefty "if" in there, but with that caveat its a potentially significant win, at least in the character creation sub-game.

-KS

 

[I'm A Banana]

So. When I'm choosing a theme, it's not enough to read the blurb the designers put at the top, unless that blurb is clearer and more accurate than any I have ever seen in an RPG. I need to know what specific abilities the theme is giving me. If the theme consists of a list of feats, I need to read the descriptions of those feats. And if I'm choosing from a bunch of themes, I need to read the feats in all those themes in order to know what my options are.

Then it sounds like you will be well served by choosing your own feats?

The bundles seem to be there for those who don't want to choose their own feats. They don't need to know the specific abilities. They trust that a theme labeled "Defender" will live up to it's name, because they trust that the game designers aren't incompetent.

If you crave a more detailed knowledge, then you don't need the themes, and you can just choose the feats.

So...still vague on the actual problem, here.