Blog post on the feel of D&D (marmell, reynolds et all)

[Henry]

JD is arguing that an unpublished book will not encourage on the fly play! Maybe he is a mind reader and has probed 'The Brains of The Rouse'!

His post doesn't say that at all. What it says is that what he's seen so far doesn't seem to encourage that. I really don't want people to put words in his mouth, but he hasn't said such.

I have not even read the actual 4th Edition rules. There could be 40 pages devoted to educating DMs on how to run exciting games, where the players can literally do anything, and it doesn't take more than a moment's thought to decide how to rule whatever they dream up.

But I haven't seen that so far, and, thus, so far, 4E doesn't feel like D&D to me.--JD Wiker.

I'm not saying you are, but several people seem bent on trying to pillory JD Wiker and his gaming group for their opinions on what they've seen, and I don't understand why.

 

[Dwight]

Flour can aid in tracking checks (toss some flour for example to see where the wet footprints appear, etc). It's not entirely similar in that it's not an attack in and of itself, but it's an age-old, tried and true (IME) adventurer technique. I'd hate to see it gimped into a per encounter ability or something.

That use strikes me as a tool that would enchance your character's own abilities, meaning some sort of minimal bonus to the Skill roll?

 

[Moon-Lancer]

I think the only true, educated and honest opinion one can have with limited exposure is a "wait and see" . we don't know alot about 4e, so lets just wait and see.

I realize this opinion doesn't work well in a discussion though, and isn't nearly as fun, so continue, please.

call me crazy

 

[mach1.9pants]

deleted, wrong button pushed

 

[mach1.9pants]

deleted

 

[AllisterH]

I have not even read the actual 4th Edition rules. There could be 40 pages devoted to educating DMs on how to run exciting games, where the players can literally do anything, and it doesn't take more than a moment's thought to decide how to rule whatever they dream up.

But I haven't seen that so far, and, thus, so far, 4E doesn't feel like D&D to me.--JD Wiker.

I'm not saying you are, but several people seem bent on trying to pillory JD Wiker and his gaming group for their opinions on what they've seen, and I don't understand why.

It's kind of a "well duh" statement.

Look, I remember when 3E came out and there literally was nothing for the DM in how to "run" a campaign since the 3E DMG came out after the PHB. Come on, Henry, surely you remember comments from rec.games.frp.dnd where most 3E detractors used to say the same thing.

When the character creator was released (when was that actually released again?) I distinctly remember people on r.g.f.d complaining that D&D was only focusing on combat.

 

[Henry]

It's kind of a "well duh" statement.

Look, I remember when 3E came out and there literally was nothing for the DM in how to "run" a campaign since the 3E DMG came out after the PHB. Come on, Henry, surely you remember comments from rec.games.frp.dnd where most 3E detractors used to say the same thing.

When the character creator was released (when was that actually released again?) I distinctly remember people on r.g.f.d complaining that D&D was only focusing on combat.

I agree, but none of them were being anywhere near as measured in their doubts as JD has been. I still have a rant from March of 2000 saved on my hard drive from r.g.f.d which sounds like a Turing machine with Coprolalia, that I keep for posterity, to remind me how hilarious some folks on the internet can be. JD's remarks are nowhere near a lopsided damning of the game the way some of the stuff in 2000 on r.g.f.d. became.

He's got his doubts, and I respect that; but people acting like he's the worst game designer they're ever heard of because he doesn't like 4e so far? People saying in the previous thread that they have serious reservations about his ability as a designer because of a blog? People talking about how he's "condemning" the game? It's overexaggerating, in the same vein as people who say that 4e is "dumbing down" and "only for the kiddies."

 

[Cadfan]

Flour can aid in tracking checks (toss some flour for example to see where the wet footprints appear, etc). It's not entirely similar in that it's not an attack in and of itself, but it's an age-old, tried and true (IME) adventurer technique. I'd hate to see it gimped into a per encounter ability or something.

Not gimped- improved.

Flour/salt/whatever can't be TOO good or else it displaces magical blinding spells and the like, and nerfs things like invisibility. Unless you make using it into a power. Then it can be equal in strength to whatever its displacing in the character's build.

 

[small pumpkin man]

His post doesn't say that at all. What it says is that what he's seen so far doesn't seem to encourage that. I really don't want people to put words in his mouth, but he hasn't said such.

I have not even read the actual 4th Edition rules. There could be 40 pages devoted to educating DMs on how to run exciting games, where the players can literally do anything, and it doesn't take more than a moment's thought to decide how to rule whatever they dream up.

But I haven't seen that so far, and, thus, so far, 4E doesn't feel like D&D to me.--JD Wiker.

I'm not saying you are, but several people seem bent on trying to pillory JD Wiker and his gaming group for their opinions on what they've seen, and I don't understand why.

The problem I have is with things like this

...the emphasis on minimizing DM adjudication--which was a philosophy that was present when I worked at Wizards, and seems to have taken root in the last six years--appears to have created an "anything other than these basic options is a suboptimal choice" mentality in the rules.

When a lot of the podcasts specifically said they were going in a different direction, of minimizing corner case scenarios specifically to allow the things he's talking about to allow the rules to "get out of the DMs way" so that when the player wants to throw salt in someone's eye, the DM has good basic guidelines to figure that stuff out, without bogging the game down with having to look up specifics. (In fact we've seen Mouseferatu raving about that being a strength of the system every time it get brought up)

Which leaves the post looking like FUD, which shouldn't impact on people's opinion of him, since, well, people who follow ENWorld seems to have more information about 4e than a lot of other people out there, but at the same time, because of that, a lot of people here are getting quite tired of the repeated FUD wafting around the internet, and that's making people surly.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Thanks s-p-man, you have stated my reply to Henry much better than I could.
See my deleted post- done so I didn't make a rear-end of myself trying to get my point across