Blood and fists Question

[Vigilance]

Yes, Hong Kong Knights was the working title of BNF II for quite awhile. Since my publisher hates that name with a white-hot passion it will probably not end up on the book lol.

And at the same time we will release the update BNF free for those who own the original. It's been done for awhile actually, but releasing the two together makes a boatload of sense from a marketing/promotions angle.

The only part of the tweak I would classify as "major" is the change in the blocking rules, which was done to address what seemed to be a general sentiment that the original rules were a bridge too far in terms of departing from the spirit/intent of the d20 combat system.

Chuck

 

[ledded]

Ledded- I too would be interested to see some characters you made up.

Most of our characters (3 each for 5 guys) are on handwritten character sheets, but I'll be trying to send Chuck a 'distilled' typed version.

Oh, JPL... targets? Heh. So far no one has lasted more than 3 combat rounds against my 14th level Sumo guy. Hard Grapple is a very, very fun thing to have, especially when combined with a Full Nelson. So much fun that I think I overheard my next opponent asking the GM for the fight if coating his PC's body in vaseline would give him any kind of bonuses...

The GM's answer should be: "Only to 'intimidate', because the whole idea is feaking me out..."

 

[JPL]

Most of our characters (3 each for 5 guys) are on handwritten character sheets, but I'll be trying to send Chuck a 'distilled' typed version.

Oh, JPL... targets? Heh. So far no one has lasted more than 3 combat rounds against my 14th level Sumo guy. Hard Grapple is a very, very fun thing to have, especially when combined with a Full Nelson. So much fun that I think I overheard my next opponent asking the GM for the fight if coating his PC's body in vaseline would give him any kind of bonuses...

The GM's answer should be: "Only to 'intimidate', because the whole idea is feaking me out..."

Funny you should mention that...just yesterday, I was telling Vig that grappling is a long-standing sore spot for my gaming group. We never seem to get the rules quite right, and it always brings the game screeching to a halt. I'm putting together a d20 Modern combat cheat sheet --- I want everyone to see their options, so we don't just fall back on "full attack until he stops moving" just because we're hazy on the mechanics involved in other forms of combat.

Last time we played, an otherwise very lethal 14th-level character got grappled by a mid-level mook and started rolling terribly. Then the PC's brother tried to help, and accidently shot the PC him at close range with a .45 Colt automatic.

I've been statting up some 10th-level "Ultimate Fighter" type guys, just as an experiment. It's great that you can make a Strong Hero / Greco-Roman Wrestling Master who is just devastating as a grappler...but never took Combat Martial Arts, or even Improved Brawl or Knockout Punch. If he tries to throw a punch at any other competitor, he's considered unarmed, does nonlethal, and will take an Attack of Opportunity.

This perfectly models some of the guys you see in real Ultimate Fighting...the big college wrestling champ who never threw a real punch in his life, the boxer who get his arm broken within seconds, and the mixed martial arts guys who covered all the bases...

 

[Tellerve]

This brings up a question. And one that probably still makes me not like the brawl chain and improved brawl. Well, I guess it would depend on your answer. Ok, so if I have improved brawl, with its +2 comp bonus to hit and 1d8 damage, can I take a -4 to hit to cause lethal damage, and thusly be considered armed? Or do I do lethal but am not considered armed?

If it is the latter then that'll be pretty good, otherwise I'll have to continue to grumble.

Tellerve

 

[JPL]

This brings up a question. And one that probably still makes me not like the brawl chain and improved brawl. Well, I guess it would depend on your answer. Ok, so if I have improved brawl, with its +2 comp bonus to hit and 1d8 damage, can I take a -4 to hit to cause lethal damage, and thusly be considered armed? Or do I do lethal but am not considered armed?

If it is the latter then that'll be pretty good, otherwise I'll have to continue to grumble.

Tellerve

As I understand it:

You can take the -4 to be lethal, but you're still considered unarmed.

In Blood & Fists, your best bet is to spend a feat on Boxing [which has Brawl as a prereq], which among other things makes you "armed" for AoO purposes when making punch attacks and lets you do lethal or nonlethal [no attack penalty].

[I don't think Vig will mind me disclosing that B&FII will have some other styles that use Brawl as a prereq and are similarly well-suited to a character who's more Charles Bronson than Jet Li.]

But if you're using your Boxing attacks, then you're not Brawling anymore, so no +2 and no 1d8...just a 1d3, plus any additional damage from various feats and masteries.

But the Brawling chain is still good stuff to use on anyone who's not considered armed [by virtue of CMA or an appropriate martial arts skill].

It's also great against a flat-footed opponent --- take Improved Initiative and you just might KO Bruce Lee with the first punch.

And sometimes, you might want to risk the AoO, turn the Power Attack up all the way, and let the teeth fall where they may. That's why God created action points.

B&F also has some nifty manuevers that have Streetfighting [from the Brawl chain] as a prereq, and the Badass Barroom Brawler advanced class, both of which ensure the viability of the brawler in a martial arts setting.

 

[JPL]

So check this out...assume I have Brawl, Improved Brawl, and Boxing. Here are my options:

1. Improved Brawl [nonlethal] --- +2 to hit, 1d8 nonlethal damage, take an AoO
--- The standard bar fight...you might get KOd or stunned, but you won't get killed.

2. Improved Brawl [lethal] --- -2 to hit*, 1d8 lethal damage, take an AoO
--- The barfight gets serious. What I lack in finesse we make up for with aggression, going for the vitals. But don't try this on anyone with strong kung fu, because I'm leaving myself wide open to someone who knows what he's doing.

3. Boxing [nonlethal] --- +0 to hit, 1d3 nonlethal damage, considered armed
--- Now I'm keeping my guard up and periodically testing the other guy's chin and looking for a KO [which probably requires some combination of exceptional luck (good rolls), exceptional skill [additional feats and masteries], or a Big Right Hand [high Str, preferably with Power Attack]].

4. Boxing [lethal] --- +0 to hit, 1d3 lethal damage, considered armed
--- Still keeping my guard up but hitting like I mean it, wearing the other guy down and drawing some serious blood.

Both 3 and 4 can be greatly improved by various feats and masteries.

So depending on what I'm trying to do, how good I am overall, and who I'm fighting, any of the four options might be appropriate.


*+2 for Improved Brawl, -4 for doing lethal = -2 total

 

[Vigilance]

BTW... since I am making serious headway on the Haven d20 conversion, its time to drop hints about what's in the future...

Soon you're going to get to see my personal d20 modern campaign as a product, in a portable form...

This is a project I attempted to pitch over two years ago without success, but you have already seen pieces of it...

It had a martial arts system with over a dozen real world styles (sound familiar?) and a military system with promotion rules and ranks...

So you have seen a significant portion of this 130+ page book I unsucessfully shopped 2 years ago in BNF and BNG... so now its time I feel for the campaign portion of it.

Chuck

 

[C. Baize]

Ooh! This sounds familiar...

 

[Tellerve]

couple more ?s

So continuing to read and be happy, but of course there are still a few things I'll probably change. Assuming they haven't been already with errata which I haven't checked out yet.

I must have missed the write up of Short Power, but I see at the back of the .pdf it is listed as needing I think a Str 14+ and Dex 13+. I don't have it with me so sorry, but basically I'm wondering why this feat that ups the damage die by one has such harsh restrictions when there are a goodly number of feats that up the damage die of kicks, head butts, etc that only need a style feat?

Thanks,

Tellerve

edit: I noticed one of the questions I wrote had been answered. So needed to do some editing

 

[Vigilance]

Well Short Power has a Str and Wis prerequisite of 13 each, and then one martial arts style.

However its effect is that it modifies the attack roll by your Wisdom, and raises your Str damage to 1.5 times your Strength modifier.

So you can see it as harsh (I see that side of it), but if you don't have a fairly good Strength and Wisdom you won't want it anyway.

Chuck