Blood and Guts class list

[Psion]

However, many of the tasks the military undertakes are extremely specialized. Things such as paradrop, air traffic control, cryptography, interrogation- all these are legitimate specialized skills.

I'm with thundershot here. These need to be profession or knowledge skills.

 

[jmucchiello]

And they shouldn't be new knowledge skills:

From the MSRD:
The number of Knowledge categories is kept purposely finite. When trying to determine what Knowledge skill a particular question or field of expertise falls under, use a broad interpretation of the existing categories. Do not arbitrarily make up new categories.

Most of the above skills fit into these categories pretty well. You just need to provide DCs for special tasks.

Behavioral Sciences: Psychology, sociology, and criminology.
Earth and Life Sciences: Biology, botany, genetics, geology, and paleontology. Medicine and forensics.
Physical Sciences: Astronomy, chemistry, mathematics, physics, and engineering.
Tactics: Techniques and strategies for disposing and maneuvering forces in combat.
Technology: Current developments in cutting-edge devices, as well as the background necessary to identify various technological devices.

 

[PosterBoy]

Thanks for the feedback. As it says on the product page, it’s not a final TOC. It's based on Charles's final draft before he sends it to me for expanded play testing and editing.

We posted it to show the content being covered and get this type of feedback. Thanks!

One note: some of these skills will be feat/skill combos like Track/Survival.

 

[Vigilance]

I appreciate the feedback as well- here's my thoughts on the subject.

Well- I do not think new skills should be created arbitrarily.

However, I find the notion that there should *never* be new skills created and that (by extension), the d20 Modern skill list is perfect and can be stretched to accomodate every activity in modern life to be hard to swallow.

Adding new Knowledge or Professional skills is no different than adding a new skill.

Some of the skills could be folded into other skills, but to me, this implies that anyone with enough skill in Tumble can jump out of a low flying airplane, at night, and land on target, weapon in hand and ready to fight.

Does this seem strange to anyone but me?

Chuck

 

[jaerdaph]

Some of the skills could be folded into other skills, but to me, this implies that anyone with enough skill in Tumble can jump out of a low flying airplane, at night, and land on target, weapon in hand and ready to fight.

Does this seem strange to anyone but me?

My +2 Wealth bonus: I think that the d20 Modern designers intended that kind of specialization to be reflected in the class features granted by Advanced Classes and Prestige Classes.

BTW, I really enjoyed Blood and Relics, and I have Blood and Fists on my wish list at RPGNow.

 

[thundershot]

That's even better yet. Don't make them skills, make them class features. Simple as that. More skills will just dilute the whole pot... Among all of the d20 products I own, there are only a few skills that have been added to my complete character sheet. I took all the D&D, d20m, and Star Wars ones, edited out the ones that were the same thing (Heal/Treat Injury and Entertain/Perform) and added ... Iajitsu Focus from OA (which I think should be a CLASS FEATURE, but what do I know...) and the Zero Gravity one from Dragonstar. (Urban Lore is folded into Survival now)

Well... anyway... I hope you can find a way to turn them into class features instead. But it's obviously your book, so do what you will...


Thanks
Chris

 

[jmucchiello]

Well- I do not think new skills should be created arbitrarily.

The problem with adding skills, esp. knowledge skills to d20m is that it screws up the Intelligent Hero and the Scientist advanced class.

Adding new Knowledge or Professional skills is no different than adding a new skill.

Shouldn't do that either, it screws up existing character classes.

Some of the skills could be folded into other skills, but to me, this implies that anyone with enough skill in Tumble can jump out of a low flying airplane, at night, and land on target, weapon in hand and ready to fight.

How often does this skill roll come up? Once per mission. What is the penalty for failure? You end up prone at the start of the mission. Tumble (DC 30). Simple. Easy to deal with. Move on to something more interesting. Or just say it is impossible with the Paratroop feat. And pair Paratroop with Tumble a la` Track/Wilderness lore. What does knowing about edible berries have to do with following footprints? Same difference.

Likewise, how often are the players making Air traffic control checks? They should be the one's landing the planes is 30 mph crosswinds on a air craft carrier deck the size of a postage stamp. Not the guy in tower going "well, it's dangerous but you can try to land." Lump it into Knowledge: Technology. As above, you could add a gateway feat to it as well.

 

[thundershot]

Another good idea. Hell, anything is better than new skills.

Chris

 

[Vigilance]

The problem with adding skills, esp. knowledge skills to d20m is that it screws up the Intelligent Hero and the Scientist advanced class.

Well- the classes in Blood and Guts are Prestige Classes. So if they aren't completely in line with an advanced class, that's ok. Also, the Intelligent Hero and Scientist have just as much access to the new skills as the Prestige Classes, through the addition of MOS skill packages.

Shouldn't do that either, it screws up existing character classes.

I did a lot of research on this game, and talked to a lot of soldiers, and they, along with the playtesters who have seen the game, seem very happy with the way the whole product hangs together.

How often does this skill roll come up? Once per mission. What is the penalty for failure? You end up prone at the start of the mission. Tumble (DC 30). Simple. Easy to deal with. Move on to something more interesting. Or just say it is impossible with the Paratroop feat. And pair Paratroop with Tumble a la` Track/Wilderness lore. What does knowing about edible berries have to do with following footprints? Same difference.

The difference in failing a skill check is not starting a mission prone. Its starting a mission 5 yards away from your target, or starting it 20 miles of enemy filled jungle away from your target.

Caught 100 feet up in the jungle canopy. Alone.

While the rest of your team is 20 miles away.

Likewise, how often are the players making Air traffic control checks? They should be the one's landing the planes is 30 mph crosswinds on a air craft carrier deck the size of a postage stamp. Not the guy in tower going "well, it's dangerous but you can try to land." Lump it into Knowledge: Technology. As above, you could add a gateway feat to it as well.

You make air traffic control sound boring.

Any skill check can be boring, or it can be vital to the completion of an adventure.

The Combat Controllers, an elite air force special ops unit, goes deep into enemy territory and sets up makeshift landing strips, then provides air traffic control in combat.

Making a pilot check in a hurricane sounds fun.

So does making an air traffic control check to get a medevac plane off a gravel runway with 100 screaming guerillas closing in.

I had a lot of hard decisions to make in the design of the product, and I think I made the right choices for the product.

Those who feel that d20 Modern covers all aspects of Modern life and that new skills should never be added, I would humbly ask them to look at the product and actually judge the product.

Not make a lot of assumptions based on the TOC.

Many skill functions were merged into existing skills already, and, after hearing your feedback, I am going back and reducing the number of new skills.

But I doubt I will reduce the number of new skills to zero. Nor do I feel like I should.

D20 Modern has a BOATLOAD of new skills.

I could make the same arguments about it.

"Riding a motorcycle? Driving a car? Can't make new skills- that screws up the rogue- umm let's use the Ride skill."

Every new product that introduces a new area of play has some new skills- the psionics handbook has PsiCraft. Why not "fold it into" spellcraft?

Because that doesnt make any sense.

Folding Paradrop into tumble makes just as little sense.

So- I am listening to feedback- but I also have to make the best choices for the product.

Chuck

PS I am thankful for all the feedback, especially the ones who disagree with me, and would like to thank everyone for taking the time to let me know what's on their minds. I'm enjoying the discussion

 

[Vigilance]

I just wanted to let everyone know that I really did listen to this discussion

After some tweaks and combinations, there will be 3 new skills in the game, not 10.

Chuck