Blood and Guts class list

[jmucchiello]

Well- the classes in Blood and Guts are Prestige Classes. So if they aren't completely in line with an advanced class, that's ok. Also, the Intelligent Hero and Scientist have just as much access to the new skills as the Prestige Classes, through the addition of MOS skill packages.

I'm not talking about access, I talking about balance. The Int hero can use his talent to get benefits in Knowledge skills. If you expand the knowledge skills you reduce the Int Hero's ability to be a know-it-all.

The difference in failing a skill check is not starting a mission prone. Its starting a mission 5 yards away from your target, or starting it 20 miles of enemy filled jungle away from your target.

Caught 100 feet up in the jungle canopy. Alone.

While the rest of your team is 20 miles away.

This is two different skills. One skill Pilot (parachute) is used to hit your target. The other, Tumble, is used to hit the ground and avoid trees. A Paratrooper feat could be used as a gateway into th Tumble skill (and to make Pilot (parachute) a class skill) but I still don't see the need for a Paratroop skill. YMMV. It's your book, not mine.

The Combat Controllers, an elite air force special ops unit, goes deep into enemy territory and sets up makeshift landing strips, then provides air traffic control in combat.

Craft (Structural) and Knowledge (Tactics)

Many skill functions were merged into existing skills already, and, after hearing your feedback, I am going back and reducing the number of new skills.

But I doubt I will reduce the number of new skills to zero. Nor do I feel like I should.

D20 Modern has a BOATLOAD of new skills.

I could make the same arguments about it.

"Riding a motorcycle? Driving a car? Can't make new skills- that screws up the rogue- umm let's use the Ride skill."

This is a strawman. D20 Modern is not D&D. They are compatible from a rules standpoint but there are differences. Besides a fantasy rogue in a modern setting should have to pay for driving skills as a cross class skill.

BTW, adding skills is described right in the d20 modern book (not the SRD). It's done inside the mage prestige class for the Urban Arcana setting. Spellcraft is added as a skill only available to the prestige class.

Every new product that introduces a new area of play has some new skills- the psionics handbook has PsiCraft. Why not "fold it into" spellcraft?

Actually, I don't mind PsiCraft. But Remote View instead of Scry is just stupid. Granted, they both go away with 3.5 but it was still a needless distinction. Likewise Use Magical Device and Use Psionic Device should have been folded into one skill: Use Supernatural Device.

So which three skills didn't we talk you out of?

 

[Vigilance]

Well- in terms of balance- I wouldnt worry much about the Smart Hero- those pansies won't be a part of many special ops teams anyway lol. *duck*

The three skills I kept were Air Traffic Control, Paradrop, and Communication Operations.

I don't see new skills as something to be avoided at all costs, and Tumble/Pilot being used for paradrop just doesn't work for me.

The other skills were merged into existing skills, sometimes requiring a feat to use at full effectiveness a la tracking.

Electronic Warfare and Cryptography are part of the Communication Operations skill now, for example, each requiring a feat to avoid a -4 penalty.

And two skills were completely reworked/done away with (Artillerist and Bureaucracy).

Still- when I looked at the book- I decided it would be stronger with fewer skills, especially since the reason I give out this sort of info before my books come out, is not only to increase interest in the books, but to listen to you guys as well

As always, comments welcome.

Chuck

 

[jaerdaph]

Well- in terms of balance- I wouldnt worry much about the Smart Hero- those pansies won't be a part of many special ops teams anyway lol. *duck*

Hey - HEY! I'm a Smart Hero sitting at a computer terminal sipping a latte miles away from the combat zone and with the push of a button - bye bye terrorist training camp!

 

[jaerdaph]

I'm with thundershot here. These need to be profession or knowledge skills.

One nitpick, guys - Profession doesn't work the same way in d20 Modern as it does in D&D, so you wouldn't be able to have Profession (Bureaucrat) for example. Profession works with the Wealth system/bonus.

 

[Vigilance]

Hey - HEY! I'm a Smart Hero sitting at a computer terminal sipping a latte miles away from the combat zone and with the push of a button - bye bye terrorist training camp!

Notice I didn't say there were no smart heroes in the *military*

I don't think, aside from the occasional medic there would be many smart heroes to be found in special ops units miles behind enemy lines

Based on my research even the medics in special ops unit's could kick my ***

 

[jmucchiello]

I don't see new skills as something to be avoided at all costs, and Tumble/Pilot being used for paradrop just doesn't work for me.

A parachute is just a funky flying vehicle. Pilot is the skill for operating flying vehicles. It is already a specialization skill like knowledge or perform. What is so wrong with Pilot(parachute) instead of Parachuting?

Not that it will really affect me if you go with your way, I'm just curious why you think Pilot doesn't apply.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

OK. I'm getting in on this. Feel free to call me an idiot, disagree with me, or get all irritated, but I'm going more by real life experience combined with my limited knowledge of mechanics, added to playing in modern games for 20 years (Top Secret, First Edition and many others).

The Skillses
Air Traffic Control - Knowledge, ATC

No. Having seen what goes down, bringing in aircraft on a hot LZ, or talking in an airstrike, this belongs on it's own. The skill check will be mandatory, as they are trying to balance the aircraft, location sea level, wind speed, incoming enemy fire, etc.
I like it as a skill. It fits in playtesting, and fit nicely in balancing realism with game mechanics.

Artillerist - Knowledge, Artillery

Knowledge, Artillery would cover the various artillery peices of various nations, the types of rounds, history of artillery, etc. NONE of that gives you the idea of how to respond to a fire request, how to utilize the arty hog, or what you need to request, etc.

Bureacracy - Profession, Bureacrat

Still think this one should be a skill.

Communication Operations - Knowledge, Communications
Cryptography - Knowledge, Cryptography

Knowledge of history and probably methods. Not of actually doing it. There are tons of military historians who would have high ranks in thier Knowledge Military skill, that couldn't lead ants to a picnic with a jar of honey. Knowledge does not equal skill.

Electronic Warfare - Computer Use

This doesn't work. At all. Just because you're a 1337 H4CK3R doesn't mean you know how to run jammers, jam enemy commo or run core viral warfare.

Interrogation - Intimidate

Threatening someone is a far cry from interrogating them. Ask anyone who's military specialty is Interrogator.

NBC - Treat Injury

OK, Just because you can wrap a bandage, does not mean you know what the color code is on a Russian artillery shell for G Agent, or how to decon an area from VX agent.
This thing is a vast, expansive, covering nuclear weapons, biological agents, and chemical warfare, skill that covers proper reporting, decontamination, use, dissemination, effects, creation, manufacturing and a whole lot more.
It's like saying: Spacecraft Operation should be covered by Use Magical Device.

Paradrop - Jump + Tumble

Ummm. No. HALO, LALO, HAHO (standard static line jump) are not covered under those too. This covers packing a chute, jumping correctly, landly correctly, etc. It's not as easy at it sounds.

Signaling - Knowledge, Signaling

Once again, see the other Knowledges...
I'm not picking on Chris, but stating valid reasons. I'm sorry some of you don't think that all of these skills are reasonable, but in my belief, my experience, and my knowledge of game mechanics, tells me that to combine these skills are a mistake.

I've read this thread, and considered the arguements.
Sorry, but they don't hold water. In todays complex modern world, trying to handle all of the actions of heroes with the limited skill chioces in the d20 Modern Core rules just doesn't work.
Handling military Air Assault course with climb just doesn't work.

 

[jmucchiello]

I've read this thread, and considered the arguements.
Sorry, but they don't hold water. In todays complex modern world, trying to handle all of the actions of heroes with the limited skill chioces in the d20 Modern Core rules just doesn't work.
Handling military Air Assault course with climb just doesn't work.

Then play GURPS. This is d20 Modern. You have a limited number of skills because HEROs succeed more often than not. It is the nature of the game system. It is cinematic. "Computer Use" should be 6-10 unralated skills right? Someone who knows a Unix system isn't going to know how to manage a Windows LAN, or how to crack security on a CIA mainframe. But there it is in the rules: Computer Use. It aids Research checks and allows you to decrypt encrypted phone conversations. It is not realistic, it's cinematic.

Every skill in the book could be a dozen individual skills. But they aren't. The list chosen can represent most "skills". You only have 2 + Int skill points to play with in most classes. If you break down every skill you have to increase the number of skill points by an equal multiple.

I'm sure a military person would tell you that someone trained on a certain class of tank is not qualified to drive a different class of tank. If you actually represent this in your skill system you will never have a satifactory number of skill point in d20 modern.

Landing a parahute is a subskill of tumble. It's just falling without getting hurt, a feature of tumbling. Piloting a parachute to specific location is (natch) Pilot (parachute).

Do you ask your players if they've been oiling their swords in D&D? Do they have to make Craft (Weaponsmith) roll when they oil them? Who cares about packing the parachute? He's the hero of the story, it is packed correctly unless someone sabotages it (a spot roll, not a parachute roll).

Realism has its limits in a game with hit ponts. If you want narrow skills, play a game that is designed for narrow skills.

 

[Vigilance]

Well- I didnt make 30 new driving skills J.

Every game that explores new territory will need some new skills.

Like PsiCraft. When you make a psionics book, you need some new skills to cover that. Paradrop is as discreet from Pilot or Tumble as PsiCraft is from SpellCraft. You considered my "let's use Ride for Driving" argument a "strawman". But in fact, there comes a line when skills diverge enough that you need *gasp!* a new one, or else, we WOULD be using Ride for Drive, and Spellcraft for Computer Use, etc.

Just because Blood and Guts takes place in the modern time period does NOT mean it doesnt cover new territory.

There are *3* new skills in the book. Who was talking about making a different drive skill for every kind of tank?

Not me.

However, just because I dont want 30 different skills for every kind of tank, does NOT mean that I have to shoehorn every endeavor into the d20 Modern skill list.

I find it interesting, in this discussion of the one and holy skill list which is complete and never needs altering, that the skill for Paradrop keeps shifting around.

At first it was Jump (JUMP?!?) I guess because the Army calls it "Jump School". That skill has to do with how high you can jump. That's not a good fit.

Then we went to Tumble- I guess for those folks who think the Army should call it "landing school". While this skill has an obvious connection to the aforementioned landing (and provides a synergy bonus to paradrop, and a chance to decrease damage from failed checks), this skill still by no means covers the intricacies of parachuting.

This skill has to do with dodging (fighting defensively gets better), rolling and tumbling around, and reducing damage from a short fall.

Lastly, we have pilot. Now- the range of vehicles in d20 Modern is specifically named, and I don't think expanding the list of vehicles, and thus the feats needed to fly everything well is any better or worse than a new skill.

Also- it just doesnt make logical sense to me. My dad, retired US and British Army (and a few alphabet soup organizations) had a lot of friends who had been fighter pilots. When those guys got out of the service, a LOT of them went into the airline industry.

I have never known a single paratrooping grunt who went into the airline piloting business. Why? Because the skills dont have much in common. So obviously Pilot (jet Fighter) or Pilot (heavy aircraft) has more to do with piloting than parachuting.

Chuck

 

[Falanor]

A parachute is just a funky flying vehicle. Pilot is the skill for operating flying vehicles. It is already a specialization skill like knowledge or perform. What is so wrong with Pilot(parachute) instead of Parachuting?

Not that it will really affect me if you go with your way, I'm just curious why you think Pilot doesn't apply.

Actually parachuting is more like controlled falling, you just don't fall and hit the ground at terminal velocity...though you can still snap bones...