Blood and Guts class list

[rpgHQ]

thats too funny lets complicate the game by making something require checks agsint two, or three or more skills instead of simply making a SINGLE new skill to cover it correctly.


Its fine and dandy to incorporate new things into existing feats and skills but when you take something that would require 2 or more feats and/or two or more existing skills your starting to actually complicate things, which is what your trying to avoid yes?

Also cinematic/operatic(sp?) game play is not the only way to play d20 or any other game system. Some people prefer superhero style play while others actually do prefer a bit of the nitty gritty to some extent, and others like it sonewhere between, thats what they enjoy about playing the game. And from all the 'minisettings' I have seen in d20 modern and published in certain magazines I think d20modern covers the gamut rather nicely.

I think the Blood series of books so far presents new things in a nice middle ground which allows folks to expand it further per their own tastes, be it simplifying things or detailing things.

Why does someone need to go use a different game system than d20 because the way they use it is different from yours? If your expecting something to be tailored made 'out-of-the-box' for your campaign your deluded, I have yet to buy any game material for rpg'ing and use it 'out-of-the-box'. Who does? Heck, even the RPGA tournament campaign settings have their own rule guidelines that restrict or expand on existing rules.

 

[Vigilance]

All good points

I do think that skill point "dissolution" is not an issue in the game, because there are plenty of skillls that not every character will want, and then plenty of skills *everyone* must have.

In my playtest group skills like Diplomacy, Computer Use, Treat Injury, Communications, Demolitions seem to have become "specialist" skills, which one member of the team being able to do them *well*, and the odd team member being ok at it in case someone goes down.

Then there are skills like Hide, Move Silently, and Paradrop that every single member of my playtest group has maxed out.

On the "realism" point, I'd also like to point folks to Blood and Guts' new combat rules section, which covers a lot of NEW things the Modern book did not (not a criticism) such as bombing, artillery, and submarine warfare. Also, there are numerous gritty combat variants, covering things like combat fatigue and mental breakdowns under fire, crossfires, friendly fire, etc.

These new rules are presented in a modular fashion, with a Genre Tag to give the GM the heads up on how much they will change the game. He can pick and choose a la carte.

Also, the game expands the vehicle selection immensely, with things like the A-10, F-16, Apache, Los Angeles Class submarine and so forth. Last time I counted you have about 35+ vehicles (with more being added every day) for transport or vehicle on vehicle combat.

Also, the vehicle weapons selection has been expanded from 3 (in memory serves) to close to 30.

So, despite the fact that the game has *gasp* 3 new skills, I think it provides a LOT of cool information and *expands* on a great d20 Modern game and makes it a little more military

Chuck

thats too funny lets complicate the game by making something require checks agsint two, or three or more skills instead of simply making a SINGLE new skill to cover it correctly.


Its fine and dandy to incorporate new things into existing feats and skills but when you take something that would require 2 or more feats and/or two or more existing skills your starting to actually complicate things, which is what your trying to avoid yes?

Also cinematic/operatic(sp?) game play is not the only way to play d20 or any other game system. Some people prefer superhero style play while others actually do prefer a bit of the nitty gritty to some extent, and others like it sonewhere between, thats what they enjoy about playing the game. And from all the 'minisettings' I have seen in d20 modern and published in certain magazines I think d20modern covers the gamut rather nicely.

I think the Blood series of books so far presents new things in a nice middle ground which allows folks to expand it further per their own tastes, be it simplifying things or detailing things.

Why does someone need to go use a different game system than d20 because the way they use it is different from yours? If your expecting something to be tailored made 'out-of-the-box' for your campaign your deluded, I have yet to buy any game material for rpg'ing and use it 'out-of-the-box'. Who does? Heck, even the RPGA tournament campaign settings have their own rule guidelines that restrict or expand on existing rules.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Then play GURPS. This is d20 Modern. You have a limited number of skills because HEROs succeed more often than not.

Because they are TRAINED in those skills.
You have a limited number of skills due to space restriction in the books and for ease of play.

It is the nature of the game system. It is cinematic. "Computer Use" should be 6-10 unralated skills right? Someone who knows a Unix system isn't going to know how to manage a Windows LAN, or how to crack security on a CIA mainframe. But there it is in the rules: Computer Use. It aids Research checks and allows you to decrypt encrypted phone conversations. It is not realistic, it's cinematic.

And thus, one of my constant complaints about movies. It's not cinematic, it's simplistic and insulting.

Every skill in the book could be a dozen individual skills. But they aren't. The list chosen can represent most "skills". You only have 2 + Int skill points to play with in most classes. If you break down every skill you have to increase the number of skill points by an equal multiple.

Why?

I'm sure a military person would tell you that someone trained on a certain class of tank is not qualified to drive a different class of tank. If you actually represent this in your skill system you will never have a satifactory number of skill point in d20 modern.

You can never learn everything in life, either.

Landing a parahute is a subskill of tumble. It's just falling without getting hurt, a feature of tumbling. Piloting a parachute to specific location is (natch) Pilot (parachute).

Actually, landing a parachute involves properly performing a PLF, and while it is a subset of tumble, if you do it wrong, you've eaten dirt and have a sprained shoulder at least, broken hips and back at worst. Piloting a parachute is like nothing else, and making it a subset of pilot is the same as saying because you can drive a car, you should be able to strap on a chute and perform a HALO jump.

Do you ask your players if they've been oiling their swords in D&D? Do they have to make Craft (Weaponsmith) roll when they oil them? Who cares about packing the parachute? He's the hero of the story, it is packed correctly unless someone sabotages it (a spot roll, not a parachute roll).

In our game, our PC's pack thier own chutes. We have to do an Airborne Check (DC: 10) for a normal chute. My character is a Jumpmaster trained, so he gains a +2 on his Spot checks to see if one is mispacked.
And yes, I do pay attention to whether or not my d20 Fantasy players do maintenance on thier gear. You sheathe a bloody sword, it might get stuck the next time you try to yank it out.
While it's cinematic, it ought to have a little realism.

Realism has its limits in a game with hit ponts. If you want narrow skills, play a game that is designed for narrow skills./QUOTE]
Why?
I paid the money for the books. I invested my time and effort. I like the idea of a large skill range, large feat trees, etc.
Why should my game be dumbed down or the damages watered down just because other people can't play the game, or don't like it?
The skill list, to me, is fine as a baseline and broad examples, but if a player wants to specialize Knowledge (History: Cold War Espionage) then should I just make him take Knowledge (History) or just acknowledge that my players want to move up?

Since the debut of D&D 3E, and now Modern, I'm one of the elitist pigs who is waiting for the advanced versions of these games.
I like lots of skills, that way characters quit looking the same. I like a massive spread of feats and feat trees. I like PrC and class chains. I like called shots and critical hits, facing, elevation and the like.

But that's just me, and I'm starting to ramble.

Have a happy Father's Day, everyone, and good gaming.

 

[Vigilance]

Again, all good points for the other side.

Ralts has an advantage over everyone on this thread but me, in that he has actually seen the product, so he has a sense of how it all hangs together.

And again- I was listening- revising 10 skills down to three after a work is completed is NOT an easy last minute design patch, and I respect the fact that, while the skills work fine within the game and for military characters, that they might pose some problems for non-military campaigns that want to make use of Blood and Gut's classes and abilities and feats.

This is why I did the grunt work and revised the game to accomadate lesser numbers of new skills.

But no new skills ever? Even when a game goes into a new area?

That's a little silly in this designer's opinion.

Chuck