Bluff/Sense motive and Spot/Listen

[shilsen]

I may be wrong, as I looked and didn't see it either. I thought it was under the weather rules or the enviromental rules a sI remember a table that had distance one can see with weather on it...least I think I did. Sorry.

You were correct, but just happen to be half an edition late The chart is on page 60 of the 3.0 DMG. They took it out in 3.5 and replaced it with separate spotting information in the different terrain descriptions in the 3.5 DMG.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Stealth and Detection in Plains: In plains terrain, the maximum distance at which a Spot check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 6d6×40 feet, although the specifics of your map may restrict line of sight. Plains terrain provides no bonuses or penalties on Listen and Spot checks. Cover and concealment are not uncommon, so a good place of refuge is often nearby, if not right at hand.

So to answer your question: 1,440 feet.

Ciao
Dave

 

[azhrei_fje]

As has been discussed here before, the modifiers to Spot don't jibe very well with the modifiers that an archer can get.

For example, an archer with Far Shot has some ridiculous range with a longbow. But they can't see that far to Spot something?! Yet the ranged attack modifier is supposed to represent such things (such as the +1 for Point Blank Shot).

IMC, I have started using a rule that I saw mentioned here (sorry, I don't remember whose rule it was). There is a +1 penalty for every 10 feet of distance between the spotter and the "spottee". But at the 100 foot mark (ie. after the penalty gets to +10), I drop the penalty to +1 per 100 feet. And at 1000 feet, the penalty changes again to +1 per 1000 feet.

It's backwards, I know. The Spot check should be easier up close and harder far away (the curve is reversed). But this makes Spot practical for close-up use, which is the normal case, but also makes it reasonable for a long-range archer to actually see his target.

As pointed earlier in this thread, this is all dependent on visual conditions: fog and smoke, trees, hills, and so forth.

 

[jeffhartsell]

Question 2:

In my current adventure, the party is all level 2. Now I know the rules of spot and listen. The whole DC= 10+1per 10 feet and stuff. But at what point do you start doing the +1? Lets say that spot isn't one of your class skill and you have no ranks in it. On an average roll you aren't going to see something 20 feet in front of you? Do you just assume that you can see something X number of feet in front of you unless its trying to advoid being seen?

We use a simple rule that you take 10 on spot checks to determine encounter distances unless you've got a reason to make a spot check. Otherwise always using spot every time you move is annoying.

So, a normal person with 10 WIS can spot a medium sized creature not trying to hide 100 ft away since the DC to spot them is 0. If they are hiding their check is the DC modified by distance. If there is more than one creature or they are larger or smaller that also modifies the DC.

Now you also have to take into account terrain... Stealth and Detection in a Forest: In a sparse forest, the maximum distance at which a Spot check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 3d6×10 feet. In a medium forest, this distance is 2d8×10 feet, and in a dense forest it is 2d6×10 feet.

We use averages instead of rolling. In a sparse forest you can see 110 ft. The lvl 1 evil commoner hunting a good ranger spots at 100 ft in the forest while the ranger spots the commoner at 110 ft. Surprise round ensues and the ranger shots the unsuspecting commoner. If they were in a dense forest they spot each other at 70 ft, roll initiative. If the ranger is moving silently and hiding to sneak up on the commoner, the ranger spots the commoner at 70ft and the commoner has no clue.

 

[Stalker0]

The encounter distance table is something that went completely backwards in 3.5. 3.0 had good solid rules with a nice table, in 3.5 its a mess.

I would recommend finding a 3.0 DMG or Arcana Evolved, the table is in there as well.

This is something I see in dnd alot, and I have been very guility of this in the past...in general, if the thing you are trying to see isn't hiding the spot dcs are VERY LOW.

DC 0, perhaps modified by size, and then by distance. So yes, a normal person in general will be able to make out medium sized people and objects up to 100 feet away.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

1) bluff can't be used against the PCs no matter who is doing it. I like that so the dice don't tell the players how to role play.

Where is this written? I didn't see it in either the descriptions of Bluff or Sense Motive. (Sense Motive even says "Use this skill to tell whn someone is bluffing you."

Dimplomacy makes specific referenc to NPCs, which I think implies that it can't be used against PCs, but Bluff says nothing of the kind.

Further's I'd argue that not allowing Bluffs against the PC increases meta-gaming. I know that the rogue took the gold, because I heard his player say so a minute ago. No matter what explination is offered I won't believe it, so how do I determine if my character does?

 

[jeffhartsell]

Where is this written? I didn't see it in either the descriptions of Bluff or Sense Motive. (Sense Motive even says "Use this skill to tell whn someone is bluffing you."

Dimplomacy makes specific referenc to NPCs, which I think implies that it can't be used against PCs, but Bluff says nothing of the kind.

Further's I'd argue that not allowing Bluffs against the PC increases meta-gaming. I know that the rogue took the gold, because I heard his player say so a minute ago. No matter what explination is offered I won't believe it, so how do I determine if my character does?

DnD was written more for co-op play instead of pvp. Trying to use skills against other players is tricky. You can always elect to attack a player even though you should not know they are evil, etc. It is meta-gaming and bad form, however.

No matter how good you are at bluffing, the player can choose not to be bluffed. It is up to the DM however, to rule that you are (in effect) creating the illusion of what you want to do.

I'd rule that if you are great at bluffing and the other person is great at sense motive, you would need to each role to see who knew what in-game. That way you can avoid meta-gaming by determining what the PCs know.

It is preferable for players not to hide stuff from each other.