Bluff vs. Sense Motive

[Xath]

It seems like it's alot easier to bluff than it is to sense that someone is doing so. Magic items and spells that enhance the wearer/caster's ability to bluff seem to be everywhere, whereas I'm not finding anything similar for Sense motive. For Example:

+ to Sense Motive:

Periapt of Wisdom +6 (+3)

+ to Bluff:

Cloak of Charisma +6 (+3)
Circlet of Persuasian (+3)
Choaker of Eloquence, Greater (+10)
Glibness (3rd level Bard spell) (+30)

And I'm sure there are more that I'm not thinking of. Let's not forget the quantity of items available for the neck slot vs the cloak slot. I only mention this because it's become a severe balance issue in some games. It's almost impossible (without a natural 20) for a character to succeed on a sense motive check against several PCs in my game.

Has this ever caused an issue in any of your games? What do you do to balance it out?

 

[Kelleris]

Liberal application of the suspicion bonus to Sense Motive, mostly. There are more item and spells for Bluff, certainly, but Sense Motive has significant bonuses built into the skill description that you can use whenever it's plausible and important that an NPC would be suspicious.

Plus, in many games Wisdom tends to be more useful as an ability score, and hence averages higher than Charisma.

There isn't much you can do about glibness, though. If I actually have a PC Bard who takes it, I pretty much resolve myself to getting lied to constantly and successfully. It's still not usually a gamebreaker - being able to lie flawlessly is not a useful ability in a number of situations even in a roleplaying-heavy game.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

I think this is a good thing

In my opinion, the game is more fun when people's characters aren't walking lie detectors, and the _players_ have to figure out what is really going on, survive the villian's traps instead of avoiding them, chase down the bad guy after he escapes, etc.

So I'm glad that it's hard to really pump up a sense motive score.

Ken

 

[Wiseblood]

I have been told the truth before and I didn't believe it. Being told a believable lie would probably go right into the same category. Just because it doesn't sound like someone is lying doesen't mean you trust them implicitly. Bluff and Sense Motive convieniently forget this. Even if they believe something you say, if you can not prove it they may change their mind.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

My current campaign has the BBEG being a manipulator. She's got loads of Bluff skill but even so the player who has taken the Inquisitor PRC is making my life hard (ie: almost impossible for the BBEG to do their job.) I'll just have to remember some of those buff items for her in future. The choker of eloquence especially appeals to me for some reason.

Off topic:
Of course the PC is meant to make my BBEGs life hard but at what point does it become a total de-rail and I have to come up with a new campaign? How much should I try to keep my original story arc going? I don't know. But the players are enjoying themselves so I can't be doing too much wrong.

 

[Xath]

My current campaign has the BBEG being a manipulator. She's got loads of Bluff skill but even so the player who has taken the Inquisitor PRC is making my life hard (ie: almost impossible for the BBEG to do their job.) I'll just have to remember some of those buff items for her in future. The choker of eloquence especially appeals to me for some reason.

Off topic:
Of course the PC is meant to make my BBEGs life hard but at what point does it become a total de-rail and I have to come up with a new campaign? How much should I try to keep my original story arc going? I don't know. But the players are enjoying themselves so I can't be doing too much wrong.

If I were the manipulative BBEG and an inquisitor PC was making my life difficult, I'd try to secretly turn that PC to my side and use him to manipulate the party.

 

[InVinoVeritas]

First off, successfully lying is easier than successfully detecting lying when it's said in the real world, so I would expect it to be similar in both cases.

Also, a master manipulator doesn't manipulate the PCs as much as remain one step ahead of them. If you take a look at my Paridon campaign (see my sig) the character of Alek has done this multiple times. He isn't trusted at all by the PCs. They know he's lying much of the time. Even so, it doesn't mean they know why he's lying. Also, he doesn't tell falsehoods as often as he simply warps his version of the truth to fall in line with the PCs' expectations, so even if they discover he's lying, they discover that the PCs don't know what's going on. That suggests that he's orchestrated some hoodwinking of the PCs without them knowing--meaning that by penetrating the lie, they learn that he's still successfully lied to them.

If you like, I'll try to pull some concrete examples.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

My current campaign has the BBEG being a manipulator. She's got loads of Bluff skill but even so the player who has taken the Inquisitor PRC is making my life hard (ie: almost impossible for the BBEG to do their job.) I'll just have to remember some of those buff items for her in future. The choker of eloquence especially appeals to me for some reason.

Sounds cool! The key is to outsmart the PCs (for a little while at least), not just out-buff them. That's hard to do, since there are more of them than there are of you, but here are a couple of ideas.

The BBEG could work through intermediaries or lieutenants. Conveying false information through people who believe it to be true. If she's involved in the Thieves' Guild, she might routinely pass useful information to the Captain of the Guard, with the caveat that revealing her identity will ruin her value as an informant. So he comes to trust her as a confidential source, and when she wants to finally put her big plan into motion she has a way to spread rumors. Since the Captain of the Guard believes that the information he's relaying is true, Sense Motive won't work. But he also won't reveal his source for the PCs to check it out.

Planting false information is also a great deal easier if it's something the PCs want to believe or something that it appears she doesn't want them to know. Suppose she finds out that one of her assistants is a spy for the PCs. She acts like she doesn't know, and uses him to unwittingly funnel false information about her plans. When the PCs act on this, she catches them and makes them look like the bad guys -- perhaps they try to sneak into her tower when they think she's away and she has the city guard there. Or perhaps they confront her in court with a sealed letter from her to a known necromancer (smuggled to them by their spy), only to have it debunked as a forgery when the seal doesn't match hers.

I'm no mystery or espionage novelist, but there's a wealth of great stories about trickery and deception and false information.

 

[Will]

I had a BBEG bard that managed to turn paladins on the party. Glibness is fun, particularly if the NPC has time to work 'off-screen.' Soon you find yourself with all sorts of heroes, looking to rid the world of the evil PCs.

 

[Khuxan]

Also, usually it's one person Bluffing and several people trying to Sense Motive - so the chances of catching the liar are higher than if it were one-on-one.