Bluff vs. Sense Motive

[Derro]

Khuxan makes a good point on bluffs performed in social as opposed to combat situations. With multiple targets you get multiple responses. Odds are someone is going to do okay.

If you are not a steadfast stickler for the rules one character could sense motive while his companions aid another to provide him with multiple +2 circ bonuses. I realize that is sort of bent but it is not totally preposterous.

If you are having problems with bluffing in combat I would suggest the following fix. Every bluff after the first suffers a -2 circ penalty if used against the same character. To me this just makes good sense. a) The defender is going to be a little bit more wary after the surprise shank in the ribs b) Those with high bluffs have more than one trick and will probably not start failing their rolls until a few sneaky moves have succeeded.

The bonus to sense motive table in the bluff description can be used with extreme prejudice. Interpret in the defender's favor. If the lie is even remotely implausible give them that +5 bonus. A hint of danger, ramp it up to +10.

Don't let spells and magic items get in your way. Glibness is broken in my opinion. Take a look at how Jump scales with caster level. I believe in 3.0 Jump provided a flat +30 bonus. Admittedly Glibness is a 3rd level spell but that doesn't mean it balances. A bard that just received Glibness can pretty much lie with impunity for 70 minutes. I don't think there are any other standard spells that provide that much of a skill bonus for that length of time at that caster level. Just because it is a non-combat spell does not mean it is incapable of unbalancing the game.

 

[Stalker0]

Also remember, that the "party" factor kicks in a lot with sense motive checks.

If a npc tries to lie to a party of 4 people, he has to beat 4 sense motive checks. That actually highly skews the odds in the parties favor.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

+30 for Glibness does seem OTT. Haven't actually encountered it in a game which is why I've never thought to use it. And in an effort to keep things on a reasonable level I think I will continue to avoid it.

Back off topic again (sorry )
Thanks for the advice on my manipulator BBEG. SHe is definitely working behind the scenes a lot more now, avoiding the PCs as much as possible.

Xath: Thanks for the advice but I'm not a big of party in-fighting, I actively ask my players not to do it so I wouldn't feel right going and encouraging it. But my BBEG is working on turning the head of the Inquisitor's clan (clan heads having a great deal of moral authority in this society.)

But it's definitely time she started lying through catspaws!!! I'm embrassed she didn't start earlier.

thanks again!

 

[Jubilee]

How do bonuses to sense motive work for rogueish types using bluff to stab you in combat? Our GMs run that as a straight sense motive v. bluff, and unless you've maxed out ranks in sense motive (and few characters can afford to do that), you always fail by the time you hit 5th lvl or so.

Do you get a bonus to your sense motive because you're already fighting?

/ali

 

[Kelleris]

How do bonuses to sense motive work for rogueish types using bluff to stab you in combat? Our GMs run that as a straight sense motive v. bluff, and unless you've maxed out ranks in sense motive (and few characters can afford to do that), you always fail by the time you hit 5th lvl or so.

Do you get a bonus to your sense motive because you're already fighting?

/ali

Assuming you're playing 3.5, the defender gets a bonus on its Sense Motive check equal to its base attack bonus. It can actually get very hard to feint successfully at higher levels because of this.

 

[Derro]

Assuming you're playing 3.5, the defender gets a bonus on its Sense Motive check equal to its base attack bonus. It can actually get very hard to feint successfully at higher levels because of this.

Is that PHB or UA? I don't find any reference to it in the SRD. I'd use that vs. my progressive -2 circ penalty. A static adjustment to a roll is so much easier to keep track of. That's been the biggest downside of my method, another step in my bookkeeping phase.

 

[Kelleris]

Is that PHB or UA? I don't find any reference to it in the SRD. I'd use that vs. my progressive -2 circ penalty. A static adjustment to a roll is so much easier to keep track of. That's been the biggest downside of my method, another step in my bookkeeping phase.

It's in the PHB. Irritatingly, there's no mention of this detail in the description for Sense Motive - you have to read the section under Bluff entitled "feinting in combat."

 

[Xath]

It's in the PHB. Irritatingly, there's no mention of this detail in the description for Sense Motive - you have to read the section under Bluff entitled "feinting in combat."

I've totally missed that. Thanks for that good egg!

 

[Klaus]

It seems like it's alot easier to bluff than it is to sense that someone is doing so. Magic items and spells that enhance the wearer/caster's ability to bluff seem to be everywhere, whereas I'm not finding anything similar for Sense motive. For Example:

+ to Sense Motive:

Periapt of Wisdom +6 (+3)

+ to Bluff:

Cloak of Charisma +6 (+3)
Circlet of Persuasian (+3)
Choaker of Eloquence, Greater (+10)
Glibness (3rd level Bard spell) (+30)

And I'm sure there are more that I'm not thinking of. Let's not forget the quantity of items available for the neck slot vs the cloak slot. I only mention this because it's become a severe balance issue in some games. It's almost impossible (without a natural 20) for a character to succeed on a sense motive check against several PCs in my game.

Has this ever caused an issue in any of your games? What do you do to balance it out?

Zone of Truth.

Also, the Bluff DC is based on the outrageousness (is that a word) of the lie. So even if you don't beat the Bluff check, you still might not be convinced.

All this without factoring in conditional modifiers and aid another.

 

[Dross]

It's almost impossible (without a natural 20) for a character to succeed on a sense motive check against several PCs in my game.

Something that has been spelt out in my games.
Even if the NPC falls for the bluff, it's possible that they will not beleive you even if you say the sky is blue. Why? Because he is following orders. They belong to an opposing order/religion. She simply hates your guts.