Bo9S - Initiator Level of multi class character

[Nail]

Yeah. That's why if you want to play a Warblade, you should take 4 levels of Fighter first. That way, at Warblade 1 all three of your maneuvers will be 2nd level.

Huh! Interesting.

Warblade is pretty much a no-risk dip for any combat classed PC. I hadn't thought of the "boosts the levels of your learned manuevers" angle.

 

[hong]

Huh! Interesting.

Warblade is pretty much a no-risk dip for any combat classed PC.

Of course, so are ftr and barb.

 

[Nail]

Of course, so are ftr and barb.

Well, not to go 'round and 'round this again, but:

A 1 level dip into Warblade gets you 1 stance and 3 manuevers...and the level of the manuevers depends on your level in your other class.

A 1 level dip into Ftr gets you one feat. Whoopeee!

A 1 level dip into Bbn gets you rage 1/day, +10 Mv. Better than the Ftr, but not by much.

The Warblade wins in the "best combat class to dip into" contest.

 

[hong]

Well, not to go 'round and 'round this again, but:

Oh, why not?

A 1 level dip into Warblade gets you 1 stance and 3 manuevers...and the level of the manuevers depends on your level in your other class.

Which you could have also got with the Martial Stance and Martial Study feats.

A 1 level dip into Ftr gets you one feat. Whoopeee!

Actually, a 2 level dip into ftr gets you 2 feats, and heavy armour, and ranged weapons. And 4 levels gets you another feat and Weapon Spec, and thence Melee Weapon Mastery.

A 1 level dip into Bbn gets you rage 1/day, +10 Mv. Better than the Ftr, but not by much.

The Warblade wins in the "best combat class to dip into" contest.

Hardly.

 

[Nail]

Oh, why not?

Sure, why not.

Which you could have also got with the Martial Stance and Martial Study feats.

That's 2 feats! And to get the 1 stance and 3 manuevers of a 1 level dip into Warblade, you'd need to spend 4 feats. This is hardly comparable!

Actually, a 2 level dip into ftr gets you 2 feats, and heavy armour, and ranged weapons. And 4 levels gets you another feat and Weapon Spec, and thence Melee Weapon Mastery.

'Member, we're talking about a "dip" here. Once you get past 1 or 2 levels, it's hardly a dip. But still......

A 2 level dip into Warblade gets you another manuever and uncanny dodge, not to mention higher skill points, a better skill list, d12 hp, weapon aptitude, and battle clarity. And a 4 levels of WB gets you 5 manuevers, 4 readied manuevers, and 2 stances.

(And remember, with weapon aptitude, those Weapon Specialization feats can be openned up to the PC.)

It's simply not comparable, IMO.

 

[Nifft]

For Q4:
P. 96 of Bo9S spells out pretty plainly that the maneuvers known and readied must be chosen to apply to one of the martial adept classes when the ability is first gained.

Awesome, I missed that the first (few) times through -- thanks!

-- N

 

[Nail]

Nifft-

Overall, what do you think of the master of Nine PrC?

 

[Nifft]

Yeah. That's why if you want to play a Warblade, you should take 4 levels of Fighter first. That way, at Warblade 1 all three of your maneuvers will be 2nd level. Compare to a Warblade 5, which will have more maneuvers *total*, but fewer 2nd level maneuvers.

Starting with Ftr 4 also is better for your stances.

What do you lose?

You lose: 2 hit points and 8 skill points, and access to a better skill list. It's usually better to start with Warblade, IMHO. Their skill list is sweet.

Regarding Stances: No, it's not. There are no 2nd level Stances -- and the wording for Stance acquisition specifies that you learn one 1st level Stance at 1st level. Some interpret that to mean you cannot jump in at, say, Fighter 8 / Warblade 1 and snag a 5th level Stance.

What's better for your Stances is taking three levels of Warblade, two levels of Fighter, and then continuing with Warblade. That way your 4th level of Warblade occurs when you have initiator level 5, so you can get a 3rd level Stance.

Cheers, -- N

 

[hong]

Sure, why not.

That's 2 feats! And to get the 1 stance and 3 manuevers of a 1 level dip into Warblade, you'd need to spend 4 feats. This is hardly comparable!

The point of a fighter _is_ feats. What are you going to do with those feats? Put them up on a wall and look at them?

'Member, we're talking about a "dip" here. Once you get past 1 or 2 levels, it's hardly a dip.

Yes it is. I have yet to see anyone take more than 4 levels of ftr since 3.5E's release.

A 2 level dip into Warblade gets you another manuever and uncanny dodge, not to mention higher skill points, a better skill list, d12 hp, weapon aptitude, and battle clarity. And a 4 levels of WB gets you 5 manuevers, 4 readied manuevers, and 2 stances.

Compared with 3 feats (which synergise far more easily with the rest of the combat framework than maneuvers), heavy armour and ranged weapons. Battle clarity and battle ardor are useless, and function essentially as a trap to make people divert build points into Int. Weapon Aptitude is essentially fluff, unless the player likes variety for its own sake. The best part of the first 4 WB levels is the 5 maneuvers known/readied, and uncanny dodge; and the latter you could just as easily get via barbarian.

(And remember, with weapon aptitude, those Weapon Specialization feats can be openned up to the PC.)

So?

It's simply not comparable, IMO.

Yes it is.

 

[Nifft]

Overall, what do you think of the master of Nine PrC?

Too painful to qualify for! The feats aren't all that bad, but there are a lot of them, and they're kinda bland.

Their speed of readied maneuver acquisition is fantastic for a Crusader or Warblade. Particularly a Crusader, though -- the note on p.96 about extra granted maneuvers makes this amazingly sweet. Perhaps too sweet. Gotta think about that.

The major super-nasty part is the Mastery of Nine class feature, but I'm not sure that's better than Dual Boost (Swordsage 20) or Stance Mastery (Warblade 20). No, nevermind: it is better. Diamond Nightmare Blade with +2 to attack and +9 to damage, which is multiplied? That's just amazing. If that were reduced to just +2 to attack whenever you initiate a maneuver, it would be enough, since that would compensate for the -2 BAB.

So: broken.

Cheers, -- N