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Bo9S - Initiator Level of multi class character

jaults

First Post
I just want to make sure I have this right: A Ftr2/Crusader 8 counts as a Crusader 9 for Initiator level, specifically for purposes of determining the highest level maneuvers he can learn, right? I am looking at the bottom of the first column, page 39, and the top of the second column, same page.

Thanks,
Jason
 

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Nifft

Penguin Herder
I've got some questions about Initiator Level and readying maneuvers for characters who have multi-classed as two different Martial Adept base classes.

Doug: Warblade 4 / Swordsage 8
Warblade IL = 8
Swordsage IL = 10

Q1: ToB p. 38 says "you must choose a selection of readied maneuvers from all the maneuvers you know". Can Doug ready his Swordsage maneuvers in Warblade "slots"?

Q2: Can Doug ready maneuvers he could have known as a Warblade, but would be beyond his Warblade IL? For example, if Doug chose a 5th level Diamond Mind maneuver for his 8th level of Swordsage, could he ready it in a Warblade slot?

Q3: Can Doug ready the same maneuver twice, if he does so once in a Warblade "slot" and once in a Swordsage "slot"?

Thanks, -- N
 

Sejs

First Post
Nifft said:
Q1: ToB p. 38 says "you must choose a selection of readied maneuvers from all the maneuvers you know". Can Doug ready his Swordsage maneuvers in Warblade "slots"?
I'd say no. There are some maneuvers that are available to one that arn't available to others. Much like a Wiz/Sorc I'd say keep the pools seperate, if you want to use an ability with both pools, you'd have to take it with both classes.

Q2: Can Doug ready maneuvers he could have known as a Warblade, but would be beyond his Warblade IL? For example, if Doug chose a 5th level Diamond Mind maneuver for his 8th level of Swordsage, could he ready it in a Warblade slot?
Again, I'd say no. Keep them seperate. Pre-empts this sort of issue.

Q3: Can Doug ready the same maneuver twice, if he does so once in a Warblade "slot" and once in a Swordsage "slot"?
Yup. If Doug knows, say, Moment of Perfect Mind both as a Warblade and a Swordsage, then he could ready the maneuver twice - one with each class's pool.
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
Doug now takes levels in a Prestige Class (say, Master of the Nine).

Doug adds his Prestige Class level to both of his Initiator Levels. (This is spelled out.) He adds his extra readied maneuvers to one of his previous initiator slots. (This is also spelled out.)

Q4: In which initiator "slots" can Doug ready the maneuvers he learned as a result of the prestige class?


Doug now takes the feat Martial Study to learn a maneuver.

Q5: In which initiator "slots" can Doug ready the maneuvers he learned as a result of the feat?


Thanks, -- N
 


Dracomeander

First Post
Nifft said:
Doug now takes levels in a Prestige Class (say, Master of the Nine).

Doug adds his Prestige Class level to both of his Initiator Levels. (This is spelled out.) He adds his extra readied maneuvers to one of his previous initiator slots. (This is also spelled out.)

Q4: In which initiator "slots" can Doug ready the maneuvers he learned as a result of the prestige class?


Doug now takes the feat Martial Study to learn a maneuver.

Q5: In which initiator "slots" can Doug ready the maneuvers he learned as a result of the feat?


Thanks, -- N

For Q4:
P. 96 of Bo9S spells out pretty plainly that the maneuvers known and readied must be chosen to apply to one of the martial adept classes when the ability is first gained.

The initiator boost applies to both adept classes, but the maneuvers known and readied must be allocated to one adept class or the other at the time it is learned/gained.

For Q5:
They did not spell it out quite as clearly. They do point out that the maneuver is a once per encounter ability that never gains a recovery method if it is learned before gaining a martial adept class, but they don't mention what to do when taking Martial Study after gaining multiple adept classes.

I would use the same ruling as used for gaining maneuvers from a prestige class.
 

hong

WotC's bitch
Sejs said:
Yup. If Doug knows, say, Moment of Perfect Mind both as a Warblade and a Swordsage, then he could ready the maneuver twice - one with each class's pool.

I wouldn't allow that, going by the same principle (it doesn't seem to be actually written down) that says you can't ready the same maneuver twice for a single class. Going to two classes shouldn't let people negate that principle.
 

Nail

First Post
hong said:
I wouldn't allow that, going by the same principle (it doesn't seem to be actually written down) that says you can't ready the same maneuver twice for a single class. Going to two classes shouldn't let people negate that principle.
I agree that readying the same manuever twice seems to be against the intent of the FAQ. For What That's Worth. :heh:

[EDIT-Errr...where is that "written down", anyway? It's not in the FAQ, and there are no errata.]
 
Last edited:

Zaruthustran

The tingling means it’s working!
Warblades should start as fighters

jaults said:
I just want to make sure I have this right: A Ftr2/Crusader 8 counts as a Crusader 9 for Initiator level, specifically for purposes of determining the highest level maneuvers he can learn, right? I am looking at the bottom of the first column, page 39, and the top of the second column, same page.

Thanks,
Jason

Yeah. That's why if you want to play a Warblade, you should take 4 levels of Fighter first. That way, at Warblade 1 all three of your maneuvers will be 2nd level. Compare to a Warblade 5, which will have more maneuvers *total*, but fewer 2nd level maneuvers.

Starting with Ftr 4 also is better for your stances.

What do you lose?

Total number of maneuvers (though you're only losing the low-level maneuvers)
Speed of acquisition of Warblade class abilities (though the abilities are pretty lame; certainly not better than 3 feats & Wep Spec access)
Hit points (4d10 instead of 4d12)
 

Nail

First Post
Zaruthustran said:
Yeah. That's why if you want to play a Warblade, you should take 4 levels of Fighter first. That way, at Warblade 1 all three of your maneuvers will be 2nd level.
Huh! Interesting.

Warblade is pretty much a no-risk dip for any combat classed PC. I hadn't thought of the "boosts the levels of your learned manuevers" angle.
 


Nail

First Post
hong said:
Of course, so are ftr and barb.
Well, not to go 'round and 'round this again, but:

A 1 level dip into Warblade gets you 1 stance and 3 manuevers...and the level of the manuevers depends on your level in your other class.

A 1 level dip into Ftr gets you one feat. Whoopeee! :p

A 1 level dip into Bbn gets you rage 1/day, +10 Mv. Better than the Ftr, but not by much.

The Warblade wins in the "best combat class to dip into" contest.
 

hong

WotC's bitch
Nail said:
Well, not to go 'round and 'round this again, but:

Oh, why not?

A 1 level dip into Warblade gets you 1 stance and 3 manuevers...and the level of the manuevers depends on your level in your other class.

Which you could have also got with the Martial Stance and Martial Study feats.

A 1 level dip into Ftr gets you one feat. Whoopeee! :p

Actually, a 2 level dip into ftr gets you 2 feats, and heavy armour, and ranged weapons. And 4 levels gets you another feat and Weapon Spec, and thence Melee Weapon Mastery.

A 1 level dip into Bbn gets you rage 1/day, +10 Mv. Better than the Ftr, but not by much.

The Warblade wins in the "best combat class to dip into" contest.

Hardly.
 

Nail

First Post
hong said:
Oh, why not?
:cool: Sure, why not.

hong said:
Which you could have also got with the Martial Stance and Martial Study feats.
That's 2 feats! And to get the 1 stance and 3 manuevers of a 1 level dip into Warblade, you'd need to spend 4 feats. This is hardly comparable!

hong said:
Actually, a 2 level dip into ftr gets you 2 feats, and heavy armour, and ranged weapons. And 4 levels gets you another feat and Weapon Spec, and thence Melee Weapon Mastery.
'Member, we're talking about a "dip" here. Once you get past 1 or 2 levels, it's hardly a dip. But still......

A 2 level dip into Warblade gets you another manuever and uncanny dodge, not to mention higher skill points, a better skill list, d12 hp, weapon aptitude, and battle clarity. And a 4 levels of WB gets you 5 manuevers, 4 readied manuevers, and 2 stances.

(And remember, with weapon aptitude, those Weapon Specialization feats can be openned up to the PC.)

It's simply not comparable, IMO.
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
Dracomeander said:
For Q4:
P. 96 of Bo9S spells out pretty plainly that the maneuvers known and readied must be chosen to apply to one of the martial adept classes when the ability is first gained.

Awesome, I missed that the first (few) times through -- thanks! :)

-- N
 


Nifft

Penguin Herder
Zaruthustran said:
Yeah. That's why if you want to play a Warblade, you should take 4 levels of Fighter first. That way, at Warblade 1 all three of your maneuvers will be 2nd level. Compare to a Warblade 5, which will have more maneuvers *total*, but fewer 2nd level maneuvers.

Starting with Ftr 4 also is better for your stances.

What do you lose?

You lose: 2 hit points and 8 skill points, and access to a better skill list. It's usually better to start with Warblade, IMHO. Their skill list is sweet. :)

Regarding Stances: No, it's not. There are no 2nd level Stances -- and the wording for Stance acquisition specifies that you learn one 1st level Stance at 1st level. Some interpret that to mean you cannot jump in at, say, Fighter 8 / Warblade 1 and snag a 5th level Stance.

What's better for your Stances is taking three levels of Warblade, two levels of Fighter, and then continuing with Warblade. That way your 4th level of Warblade occurs when you have initiator level 5, so you can get a 3rd level Stance.

Cheers, -- N
 

hong

WotC's bitch
Nail said:
:cool: Sure, why not.

That's 2 feats! And to get the 1 stance and 3 manuevers of a 1 level dip into Warblade, you'd need to spend 4 feats. This is hardly comparable!

The point of a fighter _is_ feats. What are you going to do with those feats? Put them up on a wall and look at them?

'Member, we're talking about a "dip" here. Once you get past 1 or 2 levels, it's hardly a dip.

Yes it is. I have yet to see anyone take more than 4 levels of ftr since 3.5E's release.

A 2 level dip into Warblade gets you another manuever and uncanny dodge, not to mention higher skill points, a better skill list, d12 hp, weapon aptitude, and battle clarity. And a 4 levels of WB gets you 5 manuevers, 4 readied manuevers, and 2 stances.

Compared with 3 feats (which synergise far more easily with the rest of the combat framework than maneuvers), heavy armour and ranged weapons. Battle clarity and battle ardor are useless, and function essentially as a trap to make people divert build points into Int. Weapon Aptitude is essentially fluff, unless the player likes variety for its own sake. The best part of the first 4 WB levels is the 5 maneuvers known/readied, and uncanny dodge; and the latter you could just as easily get via barbarian.


(And remember, with weapon aptitude, those Weapon Specialization feats can be openned up to the PC.)

So?

It's simply not comparable, IMO.

Yes it is.
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
Nail said:
Overall, what do you think of the master of Nine PrC?

Too painful to qualify for! The feats aren't all that bad, but there are a lot of them, and they're kinda bland. :)

Their speed of readied maneuver acquisition is fantastic for a Crusader or Warblade. Particularly a Crusader, though -- the note on p.96 about extra granted maneuvers makes this amazingly sweet. Perhaps too sweet. Gotta think about that.

The major super-nasty part is the Mastery of Nine class feature, but I'm not sure that's better than Dual Boost (Swordsage 20) or Stance Mastery (Warblade 20). No, nevermind: it is better. Diamond Nightmare Blade with +2 to attack and +9 to damage, which is multiplied? That's just amazing. If that were reduced to just +2 to attack whenever you initiate a maneuver, it would be enough, since that would compensate for the -2 BAB.

So: broken. :(

Cheers, -- N
 

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