Bo9S

[Irda Ranger]

Anyway, D&D classes are pretty transparently just ability packages. They stopped effectively being archetypes a long time ago.

Yes, sadly. Where have all the Fighting-Men gone?

OTOH, the archetypes still exist, they've just multiplied and stepped outside the rules. My Aristocrat/Fighter with Mounted Combat is the epitome of the gentleman Knight (he even has shining armor).

 

[Sound of Azure]

So you think PCs should be allowed to choose the Assasin Prc because NPCs might have it?

Pretty much*.

If there's an organisation of assassins in the game, then there should be some way for a character to join them. It may very well be that said character may no longer be welcome in their adventuring party, however.

Similarly, if there are people in your campaign who know how to use martial manoeuvres, a PC ought to able to seek one of those people out to learn from them. How easy/hard that is depends on the DM.

Remember, the best way to kill a ninja... is with another ninja.

*Should not be construed to mean NPCs possessing a game option should be the only catalyst for players wanting the same option for their PCs.

 

[Rolzup]

Apparently, the rules disagree with your point of view. That said, I'd have no difficulty with a player playing an assassin. The character would have to be evil, though, with all tyhe baggage that entails.

No, not really.

Again, the skills and abilities of the assassin class are also perfectly suited for a variety of other roles. Call it the "Commando", change the entrance requirements to Lawful alignment and "Must have completed one mission alone behind enemy lines", and there you go. Mechanically, still an Assassin. In terms of roleplay, a different beast indeed.

Not, however, really all that relevant to the thread...and for that, my apologies.

 

[DungeonMaester]

No, not really.

Again, the skills and abilities of the assassin class are also perfectly suited for a variety of other roles. Call it the "Commando", change the entrance requirements to Lawful alignment and "Must have completed one mission alone behind enemy lines", and there you go. Mechanically, still an Assassin. In terms of roleplay, a different beast indeed.

Not, however, really all that relevant to the thread...and for that, my apologies.

I hate to drag this even more off topic, but it some times seems like when you are a player, the DM never goes for that idea, and when you are the Dm, the players never buy it.

---Rusty

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

I have seen posts on both sides of the fence regarding how balanced the Tome of Battle is or isn't. I have noticed that a majority of the those who think the martial Adepts are balanced just fine tend to be playing one or playing along side one. This got me thinking and left me with this question.

If you were a player in a game where Martial Adepts started appearing with regularity as adversaries yet the PCs were not allowed access to those classes or feats etc would you still think everything was fine and balanced?

I've always been a "fair for the goose, fair for the gander" type of guy. So having NPCs only get access to anything, be it Martial Adept classes/maneuvers or spells or psionics whatever "just because" tends not to sit well with me. If they were to show up first in the hands of NPCs, and the PCs would eventually get a chance to start learning them by going through quests/adventures to find teachers or gain the requisite knowledge, that's perfectly fine, because the players have the choice on whether to seek them out or not.

So far in my group's current game, my Warblade has been the only martial adept, although a few enemy NPCs have busted out some martial maneuvers. DM has promised to throw an evil-aligned Crusader at us, and I for one eagerly await that challenge

Years back, I played for a short while in another guy's D&D game (2nd edition), where the only beings that had psionics were mind flayers, devils and demons, and it was counted as being separate from magic, and thus protections against magic did squat. Pretty much allowed them to mind-frell the group eight ways from Sunday, with no chance of us eventually getting on an equal footing. Small wonder the group told the guy to take a long walk off a short peer after the third session...

 

[Arkhandus]

I agree with Donovan in opinion and reasoning on this.

 

[Moggthegob]

As a DM I allowed them in on eberron campaign i ran. Never again. The guy completely wrecked encounters that were meant to be tough and made the fighter feel useless. Becus yes maybe my fighter or halforc barbarian can deal more damage on average, you have a maneuver that can do something potentially moreu seful and still potentialy do something to either buff yourself, the party or debuff the enemy or to undo the enemies only advantage in some cases.

Point was it seemed that he traded a little bit of constant damage for big bursts, recoverable on a per encounter basis and usually madeup for theb ursts thing in the way of ending combats quickly. Other than the cleric they may as well have not been a rest of the party.

ALso crusader has all the same problems the frenzied berserker has only to a lesser degree. Also, more things to keep track of means more chance for player dishonesty/error.

 

[Sound of Azure]

ALso crusader has all the same problems the frenzied berserker has only to a lesser degree. Also, more things to keep track of means more chance for player dishonesty/error.

Your crusader tried to kill the party?

 

[glass]

I agree with Donovan in opinion and reasoning on this.

ditto.


glass.

 

[Midknightsun]

Shady, I saw none of the bias that others claimed they did in your initial post for what its worth.

As far as BO9S for NPC adversaries, if that were to happen, I don't think it would be unbalanced, just like I do not see Martial Adepts being unbalanced as PCs. I'd be bummed, to be sure, but I don't see it as a balance issue either way. Having played a few Martial Adepts as PCs and NPCs(eliminating a few broken combos), they play just fine. Sometimes what happens, though, as with many newer classes, is that you may catch some of your players by surprise with the new and funky things they can do. Much like some DMs can be caught off guard by their array of maneuvers. This may lead some to think them as overpowered, but trust me, my Swordsage and Warblade got their backsides torn apart more than once, or put in a situation where their maneuvers were less than useful (ranged combat anyone?)