Bob Salvatore on the various editions of D&D

[Mercurius]

I generally agree with what he said although the tactical/wargamey feel of 4E has grown on me. He also makes the point which a lot of folks seem to overlook or deny in the so-called "Edition War," that he likes 1E because that is what he grew up on. Sure, there are conscious reasons why one can like one edition more than another, but chances are that I--at age 37, having started playing with 1E in the early 80s--feel more nostalgia for 1E than, say, a 17-year old would. In other words, we can't separate the affective/emotional/sentimental from our preferences and I think it is disingenuous to deny the "I like it because I grew up on it" factor.

We can, however, separate it from our discussion of the game mechanics and the way the game plays at the table. If we were able to recognize and come to terms with our subjective likes, and recognize that it is all good from that perspective, and there are no "badwrongpreferences" then I think we could have some rather interesting discussions about the various strengths and weaknesses of the different editions, as they play at the table (not as we prefer them, which is subjective).

As for Mr. Do'Urden, I read the original two series as they came out but couldn't finish what I think was the seventh book, Legacy. By that point the uber-kewl factor of Drizzt had just gone through the roof and his badass-factor (BAF?) was out of control. I got tired of reading an endless stream of neverending battle scenes that described just how amazing Drizzt was. This came out around the same time I quit reading comic books; I was in my late teens and I guess wasn't as into the comic hero wish-fulfillment of a 12-year old boy anymore (and it was also at the height of the politically correct craze and I was much-inspired by my Mary Daly-reading feminist girlfriend, and I learned to find the comic book depictions of females objectionable).

Now there is nothing wrong with 12-year old boy wish fulfillment, even at later ages, but I have since preferred it as a secondary element whereas in the Drizzt books it was always front-and-center. It is a very different experience from reading, say, Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series, or Wizard Knight (which consciously subverts and explores that wish fulfillment theme). Again, it isn't about what is "better" but how many "nested dolls" a story includes, and the older one gets the more one tends to want greater depth and subtlety. Now of course some "shallow" stories are actually more entertaining than so-called "deep" stories, and it is a rarity that an author is able to do both - write a rip-roaring story with lots of fun kewl nuggets, but that also has great depth and subtlety.

But I've strayed a bit...

 

[jaerdaph]

He's Canadian. The men all look like that ... or like Michael J. Fox. There is no in-between.




P.S. I keed. I KEED!

Don't forget The Shat!

 

[havard]

Windjammer,
Love the vid! Thanks for sharing. It was great seeing Greenwood, Elmore and Salvatore gaming.

Now I'm off to Youtube to watch the rest of their game.

-Havard

 

[TarionzCousin]

Don't forget The Shat!

I don't know... he looks rather like Michael J Fox to me.

 

[Dire Bare]

That doesn't mean the character isn't widely reviled, it absolutely is. There is just something about that whiny little elf that annoys people like me, but there are still a lot of people who like the books. If a million people love a book and nobody else cares you sell a million copies. If a million people hate the books and a million people love them, you still sell a million copies.

Personally I wish the focus had remained on Wulfgar.

Sorry, I wasn't terribly clear in my post. Of course there are those who not only don't care for Salvatore's work, but do revile his characters, especially Drizzt. In the context of the novels, the games, or both. And that's totally fair, and not laughable.

But what I do find laughable is the "truism" within fandom that Salvatore's works are universally reviled by the majority of D&D fandom. I strongly believe it's a minority of fans who revile Drizzt, and revile him loudly and at every opportunity, that gives people that impression.

I put it in the same category as those who edition war (regardless of which side they're on). Those of us who argue back and forth on messageboards are merely a fraction of fans active online, who then are a fraction of fans in general.

 

[Dire Bare]

Bob Salvatore is not a great writer, but he is a good writer. As a professional editor and writer (though in the field of business publications, not fiction), I can tell you firsthand that most people who think they can write well enough to be publishable, can't. Salvatore is one of the great "workmanlike" hacks of the world, in a class with the likes of Steven King, Dan Brown, Dean Koontz, etc. We don't teach these guys in our literature classes, and we're often embarrassed that we like them- yet we have reasons for liking them, namely that they're good at banging out an enjoyable story. I'd say Salvatore's greatest strength as a writer is that he can make battle scenes and action scenes come alive in a way that stymies many better writers. There are many writers I'd put in a higher class- like Neal Stephenson, or China Mieville- who can't write a fight like Bob.

While I'd agree that writer's like Salvatore, King, Brown, and Koontz have very different styles than others, like Stephenson or Mieville, I also laugh at the claim they are hacks. This comes up often in discussions of Salvatore's work, and I won't go much into a defense, but I will say this . . . . back in the day, Shakespeare, Dumas, and many other writers that we DO teach in lit class were put in the same category.

Generally, works of literature that a large number of people enjoy last. "Better" works that don't necessarily appeal to the masses often don't. That's not universally true, but is often the case.

 

[javgoro]

Oh, and to the guy who called Drizzt a "whiny elf", you've obviously never read the books. I can't think of an adjective less descriptive of Drizzt than whiny. He's actually a very- VERY- stoic character. Either you're getting him confused with Elric of Melnibone (a common enough mistake), or just associating him with his fans (an equally common mistake).

I agree with your overall points. However, I stand by my words that Drizzt is whiny (and yes, I have read all the novels up to The Hunter's Blades, which I simply couldn't get myself to finish. It wasn't grabbing me at all). Drizzt's diaries are full of "woe is me, for I can never find a home", then of "woe is me, for I still do not feel full". The tone does change later on, but by then the Marty Stu'ness has pretty much taken over, and the novels basically read as a whole bunch of things that, no matter how bad they are, never really affect Drizzt, who also manages to score all the hot chicks.

In fact, my favourite Salvatore Dnd novels are those where Drizzt does not feature (like Servant of the Shard), as I find Entreri, Wulfgar or Jarlaxle far more interesting, "real" characters. I guess your mileage may vary.

 

[jaerdaph]

I don't know... he looks rather like Michael J Fox to me.

Well, they've both been... back to the future!

 

[kitsune9]

(not criticizing your post, merely riffing off it) I find the idea that Salvatore's Drizzt character has been "stridently reviled" for decades laughable. Sure, some folks dislike Salvatore's work, and that's fine, but like so many things in fandom, a loudly vocal minority has skewed perceptions on Salvatore's works and characters. If Salvatore was such a poor writer, and his characters so "stupid" and "annoying" . . . why does he consistently hit the NYT bestseller's list? Why does Wizards keep paying him to write more novels featuring Drizzt? How does he make his living as a full-time writer? Why do I enjoy all of his novels? Am I the only one who financially supports this guy?

My sentiments exactly. I've enjoyed some of the novels that I've read, and I think Drizzt is an interesting character myself.

 

[PeelSeel2]

Well, they've both been... back to the future!

Uuuurrggghhh.