BoED: How are Ravages different from Poisons?

[Mercule]

Okay, my wife got me BoED for my birthday last weekend and I just read through the equipment section. I'm a bit confused about Ravages. I know that, in theory, they are poisons that are fine for good characters to use. Since I never understood why it was Evil to use poisons (you're trying to kill someone, poison just makes it happen faster), maybe I started with bad assumptions. Anyone who could set me straight has my gratitude.

Anyway, the only reason why it says poisons are non-good is "it causes undue suffering in the process of incapacitating or killing on opponent." (p34) It also states that ability damage is the hallmark of this suffering. Okay. I can buy that. So, that means ravages are humane -- presumably only debilitating their targets, like a tranq dart.

But wait. As I read on, it says that ravages affect evil creatures by causing "physical corruption that wracks their bodies." (p35) Well, as long as it's only causing suffering that makes a poison evil, this is probably okay -- or not. Also, all the ravages listed deal ability damage.

Some of the specific ravages and afflictions (they aren't separated in the listings) have some questionable effects. Celestial Lightsblood, for instance, "first slows and then sickens creatures it affects." Depraved Decandence causes "ravenous hunger" to the point of strength loss, which sounds like starving to death, IMHO. Haunting Conscience results in the victim being "guilt-wracked and violently angry". While I can see redemption coming from guilt, I have a hard time thinking the "violently angry" part is very "Exalted".

Well, what am I missing?

 

[Blood Jester]

How are Ravages different from Poisons?


'Cause they said so!

Honestly? I'm of your opinion, ravages=poisons. I found that whole section a BS way to get around the 'Good guys don't use poison.' schtick.

 

[Sejs]

Two primary differences distinguish ravages from poisons.

1: ravages only hurt bad guys. if you're not evil you can chill your drinks with golden ice and wash your hair with celestial lightsblood - it won't bother you one bit.

2: ravages work by turning the subject's own negative traits against said subject. it's not so much introducing a hostile substance into the target's body, as making them pay account for their own misdeeds. uh.. just in the form of stat damage.


other than that... yeah they're pretty much poison for good guys. though the touch of golden ice feat can make for the "I'm so holy evil can't bear to lay hands on me" kind of characters.

 

[Derulbaskul]

"I'm so holy evil can't bear to lay hands on me" kind of characters.

Yeah, I've got one of them in one of my games. It snuck past me, something that rarely happens these days.

What is beginning to bother me more and more is that there is nothing particularly Exalted about the character (and that's a matter I will address in the not-too-distant future... and at the worst possible time). Anyway, it's my own fault. I allowed a high level replacement PC late in the campaign because the player found his existing PC wasn't quite powerful enough (actually, the power level was fine... he just RPed him as incredibly stupid and careless and then wondered why he kept dying).

 

[Silveras]

How are Ravages different from Poisons?


'Cause they said so!

Honestly? I'm of your opinion, ravages=poisons. I found that whole section a BS way to get around the 'Good guys don't use poison.' schtick.

I have to agree. I like much of the BoED, but a poison that only affects the Evil is still a poison, and "dirty pool" as far as "Exalted" behavior goes. That little bit of sophistry ... saying it is not a poison because only Evil is affected ... annoys me.

 

[DonaldRumsfeldsTofu]

It's the same reason why undead are a sin against nature and deathless are noble. It, like most of the alignment system, is completely arbitrary.

Not that I don’t like the BoED or the BoVD. Parts of them just seem like a stretch, such as a good deity sending demon raven swarms to desecrate and torture whole countrysides, or insane people being evil.

 

[rounser]

Parts of them just seem like a stretch, such as a good deity sending demon raven swarms to desecrate and torture whole countrysides,

Of course good deities don't use demons for that sort of thing. That's what angels/devas are for...

or insane people being evil.

I don't think that's even the case in Ravenloft.

 

[Derulbaskul]

Ravens = evil. I statted up a raven swarm for the Against the Shadow Midnight fansite before I got the BoED (think swarm of rats that can fly and possibly blind you, albeit temporarily because it's a low magic world). What can be more evil than a swarm of ravens... especially when astirax possessed but that's another matter... and yet the BoED has them as tool of righteous smiting?

Back to ravages. They lack flavour. A little bit of flavour text to provide a backstory as to how they were created, why they existence etc... would have really helped to make these seem as something other than poisons by another name.

Actually, if there was some sort of celestial of vengeance that had the ability to afflict true Evil with ravages that might at least provide me with a sense that there is a reason for ravages to exist. Then again, the official outsiders are more a grab-bag of abilities rather than carefully designed monsters whose abilities reflect their nature, role and/or purpose... but I think I've typed that a few times lately....

Anyway, I'm still trying to think of a single thing that I use out of BoED in three separate campaigns other than the (pity-motivated) lapse in allowing the character with golden ice, a lapse that won't be repeated in the future. By comparison, I found Book of Hallowed Might rather inspiring and Book of Vile Darkness superb.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

So far, I am sorely disappointed in the alignment books.

As far as I can tell, neither really expounds on the alignments as offered in the PHB-- they just offer four new alignments for characters: Cartoonish Evil, Self-destructive Evil, Useless Good and Hypocritical Good.

Guess where I place the "poison is evil, but ravages are alright" statement?

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I have to agree. I like much of the BoED, but a poison that only affects the Evil is still a poison, and "dirty pool" as far as "Exalted" behavior goes. That little bit of sophistry ... saying it is not a poison because only Evil is affected ... annoys me.

No different in my mind than the Paladins Holy Smite ability which only hurts evil and I bet would really hurt much worse than a normal wound.