BOED Vow of Poverty: Keep it or Trash it?

[Pseudonym]

Where it an option, I'd go with "Meh - I'm rather apathetic about it."

I've never allowed it because no player has ever asked for it, and having never seen it in play I have no basis to dislike it. I'm not one of those folks who develops an intense opinion on a feat or class based solely upon reading it, so I really can't say one way or the other.

 

[ForceUser]

What people need to realize about VoP is that it is a role-playing device designed to explore the exalted path, emulate a normal character's feat and magical wealth progression, and that it's not a good fit for every campaign or every character. With regard to player characters, it is the exception rather than the rule. Also - and this is big - it is a fragile state that can be forever removed from a player character. Your average PC might lose a few magic items here or there, but by and large will retain what he gains. An exalted character, if properly challenged by the DM, should never rest comfortably in the assumption that he will forever retain his VoP powers. And once they're gone, they're gone.

There is also the assumption that since VoP is mature content it will be dealt with maturely. In other words, groups that "get it" will not have a problem with VoP, and groups that see it as merely a device to munchkin a character on flimsy role-playing pretenses probably shouldn't be using content from BoED or BoVD to begin with.

I like VoP and the role-playing challenges it presents. The powers that come with it merely allow an ascetic character to function properly in a game system that assumes characters of certain levels have magic items & powers appropriate to that level. Without VoP or a similar mechanic, it's impossible for a 3E player character to explore the ascetic lifestyle and survive. An artificial solution, perhaps, but no more so than hit points, saving throws, and many other D&D sacred cows.

 

[sparxmith]

Where it an option, I'd go with "Meh - I'm rather apathetic about it."

I've never allowed it because no player has ever asked for it, and having never seen it in play I have no basis to dislike it. I'm not one of those folks who develops an intense opinion on a feat or class based solely upon reading it, so I really can't say one way or the other.

I'm assuming that you don't play any characters? Try it out. It's worth it.

 

[sparxmith]

what is the vow of poverty?

The Vow of Poverty is an feat found in the Book of Exalted Deeds. It is an Exalted feat, (i.e. only Exalted characters can take it), that is one of everal different sacred vows. Each of the Vows is a type of vow that an ascetic might take. For instance, there are also a vows of chastity, non-violence, etc. Each of these vows is intended to stretch the limits of what a D&D character can be.

Most of the other vows grant some bonuses to different types of saves. The Vow of Poverty, is the most powerful of them. It grants a variety of different benefits from an AC bonus, to save bonuses, to stat bonuses. It mechanically recreates the effects of wealth without using wealth.

The advantages of this are that the Vow's effects cannot be dispelled. Furthermore, the takers of the Vow tend to have higher AC's than party members.

The disadvantages are pretty obvious. The player can never use any magical items. The druid in the party the only one left to use the Staff of Life to resurrect the Cleric and the Rogue? You're up a creek. The character is also limited in versatility. He cannot expand his abilities through the use of magic. Furthermore, the character is useless in ranged combat. (Except for the druid casting Call Lightning.) Lastly, even though the writers of the Vow attempted to prevent this from happening, a taker of the Vow just isn't as good as a member of the same race/class/level as one who didn't take the vow in killing things.

That's the Vow of Poverty in a nutshell. Any other questions?

Sparxmith

 

[BigAlzBub]

I neither love nor hate it, I do however think it has a poor choice of name, I think it should be called a vow of charity, since you give the money away freely, rather than have nothing to do with it. If roleplayed properly it can make a character very interesting, however I feel than too many munchkin players have it not because they want to roleplay, but because they want a bunch of kewl powerz that the GM can't take away when they get chucked in jail. Overall the BoED feats and spells are very powerful, but they come at a cost, I don't think that cost was very well explained in the BoED, I would have liked to see some samples of the sort of thing you have to do, to become exalted, and it shouldn't have been easy.

 

[herald]

I voted for the "DM-Hate" choice. I think playing a character with a Vow of Poverty is fine and dandy but how quick would people be to choose that Vow if there weren't all the nifty advantages that it gives? I refuse to believe that most people would take it for "Role Playing Opportunities" if it didn't give all the neat abilities. I see it as more of a munchkin ability than anything else. What Monk wouldn't take it? Most magical items are redundant to a Monk anyway so boosting his/her abilities is the thing that makes most sense. Add to that the fact that the abilites can't be taken away like magic items can. Personally I'd love to have a player who showed up to the game after taking the Vow of Poverty only to find that I won't allow the abilities that go along with it and NOT change their mind but instead play their character as planned for the role-playing opportunity.

I actually broke out load laughing reading this. WHY WOULD ANYONE TAKE A FEAT IF IT DIDN'T OFFER THEM AN ADVANTAGE?

You can roll-play a vow of poverty all you want without taking an feat.

The concept of Vow of Poverty is that many of the real world's religions have individuals that lead a contemplative life to obtain a higher spirituality. There and many stories about these individual set upon by forces of nature, brigands, famines and the like and being able to overcome them through sheer for of faith. The Vow of Poverty feat is D&D's answer to that, and if memory serves, you need to take two feats to get it. One for the actual feat and one for the pre-req. All in all, it's not overpowered.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Bumpity-Bump-Bump

As a reply to Herald... my statement was due to the fact that many people pointed at the role-playing aspect of the Vow of Poverty as the reason they took it rather than the buffs it gives the PC. You need not take Vow of Poverty to play a character who has sworn such a vow. If your character keeps no possessions but gives everything he/she gains to charitable organizations then he/she essentially has taken the Vow without spending the feat. Monks and Druids in particular can get along fine without owning a single item yet in my experience people take the VoP for those two classes specifically because it ISN'T much of a hinderance to them.

Anyway, this poll isn't intended as a flamewar forum on who is right or wrong... I just feel that it is WAY overpowered but that is just MHO.

 

[Li Shenron]

I haven't used it or seen it used yet, so my opinion is not backed up by any direct experience.

I think it's a fine option to try out in a game, and I only have to relatively minor issues with it:

1) bonus feats - I think the feat is already balanced without the need of giving bonus exalted feats, which have the additional problem of being very few to choose from and of not being very balanced themselves IIRC

2) I dislike very much the way VoP works retroactively, both because of the different amount of benefit and the sudden appearance of the same

 

[kolikeos]

The Vow of Poverty is an feat found in the Book of Exalted Deeds. It is an Exalted feat, (i.e. only Exalted characters can take it), that is one of everal different sacred vows. Each of the Vows is a type of vow that an ascetic might take. For instance, there are also a vows of chastity, non-violence, etc. Each of these vows is intended to stretch the limits of what a D&D character can be.

Most of the other vows grant some bonuses to different types of saves. The Vow of Poverty, is the most powerful of them. It grants a variety of different benefits from an AC bonus, to save bonuses, to stat bonuses. It mechanically recreates the effects of wealth without using wealth.

The advantages of this are that the Vow's effects cannot be dispelled. Furthermore, the takers of the Vow tend to have higher AC's than party members.

The disadvantages are pretty obvious. The player can never use any magical items. The druid in the party the only one left to use the Staff of Life to resurrect the Cleric and the Rogue? You're up a creek. The character is also limited in versatility. He cannot expand his abilities through the use of magic. Furthermore, the character is useless in ranged combat. (Except for the druid casting Call Lightning.) Lastly, even though the writers of the Vow attempted to prevent this from happening, a taker of the Vow just isn't as good as a member of the same race/class/level as one who didn't take the vow in killing things.

That's the Vow of Poverty in a nutshell. Any other questions?

Sparxmith

there is a prestige class in masters of the wild called the forsaker which is pretty much the same exept you don't have to be good aliged

 

[Destil]

As long as the player and the DM can agree on what it means and why it shouldn't cause any meta-game problems. May be some in-game problems, but that's half the fun.

It's exactily the same as allowing a paladin in my opinion. They're both even potentially overpowered in low magic games and underpowered in high magic ones (though less so with paladins in high magic, since multi-attribute dependancy is a good thing with lots of bonus items flying around).