Bolster Undead & Turn Resistance?

[Ogrork the Mighty]

If an evil cleric successfully bolsters undead which also happen to have Turn Resistance (TR), does the TR apply before or after adding on the bolstered HD? In other words, do they stack?

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Nobody?

 

[shilsen]

The core books say anything about how Turn Resistance and Bolster Undead interact, so it's up to the individual DM to interpret.

 

[Camarath]

Rules from the SRD

"Turn Resistance (Ex): A creature with this special quality (usually an undead) is less easily affected by clerics or paladins. When resolving a turn, rebuke, command, or bolster attempt, add the indicated number to the creature’s Hit Dice total."

"Bolstering Undead: An evil cleric may also bolster undead creatures against turning in advance. He makes a turning check as if attempting to rebuke the undead, but the Hit Dice result on Table: Turning Undead becomes the undead creatures’ effective Hit Dice as far as turning is concerned (provided the result is higher than the creatures’ actual Hit Dice). The bolstering lasts 10 rounds. An evil undead cleric can bolster himself in this manner."


I think that since Bolstering Undead states that you use it result as the creature's "effective Hit Dice" it would not stack with Turn Resistance. This is because I think a creature's effective Hit Dice would be after modifiers such as Turn Resistance. Much like a creature's Effective Character Level is after the application of the creature's Level Adjustment which while not actual a level modifies the creature's Character Level for some purposes (as Turn Resistance is not HD but modifies HD for some purposes).

Also the addition of Turn Resistance to the Bolstering Undead result would cause the Hit Dice result in the Bolstering Undead check not becoming the undead creatures’ effective Hit Dice as far as turning is concerned which is contradictory to the Bolstering Undead rule. Thus as written I do not think Turn Resistance and Bolstering Undead stack.

 

[moritheil]

Also the addition of Turn Resistance to the Bolstering Undead result would cause the Hit Dice result in the Bolstering Undead check not becoming the undead creatures’ effective Hit Dice as far as turning is concerned which is contradictory to the Bolstering Undead rule. Thus as written I do not think Turn Resistance and Bolstering Undead stack.

Unless the DM interprets it as the effective base hit dice to which TR is applied. Not as explicitly stated, I know, but an easy houserule to make.

 

[Camarath]

Unless the DM interprets it as the effective base hit dice to which TR is applied. Not as explicitly stated, I know, but an easy houserule to make.

You don't really have to make a house rule to allow Turn Resistance and Bolstering Undead to stack allow all you have to do is define "effective Hit Dice" as the base HD value rather than the final used HD value. If you do so then effective Hite Dice replaces Hit Dice total as far as Turn Resistance is concerned and thus would add Turn Resistance to the effective Hite Dice from Bolstering to get the final value for turn, rebuke, command, and bolster attempts.

Since "effective Hit Dice" is not a defined term the DM does as shilsen pointed out have a great deal of latitude. And he could I think put forth either ruling with out contradicting the RAW. I think a strict interpretation supports Turn Resistance and Bolstering Undead not stacking. But since any interpretation depend on an undefined term no interpretation can be truly definitive.

I think I will check some of the other WoTC sources (when I get home) to see if there is anything addressing this issue. This would seem to be the kind of question the would occasionally need some clarification. But possible that the writers did not consider that others might not make the same assumptions.

 

[moritheil]

You don't really have to make a house rule to allow Turn Resistance and Bolstering Undead to stack allow all you have to do is define "effective Hit Dice" as the base HD value rather than the final used HD value. If you do so then effective Hite Dice replaces Hit Dice total as far as Turn Resistance is concerned and thus would add Turn Resistance to the effective Hite Dice from Bolstering to get the final value for turn, rebuke, command, and bolster attempts.

Since "effective Hit Dice" is not a defined term the DM does as shilsen pointed out have a great deal of latitude. And he could I think put forth either ruling with out contradicting the RAW. I think a strict interpretation supports Turn Resistance and Bolstering Undead not stacking. But since any interpretation depend on an undefined term no interpretation can be truly definitive.

I think I will check some of the other WoTC sources (when I get home) to see if there is anything addressing this issue. This would seem to be the kind of question the would occasionally need some clarification. But possible that the writers did not consider that others might not make the same assumptions.

Very nicely put. I had assumed that "effective HD" meant "final HD," since the turn resistance effectively increases their difficulty to turn. However, that does not necessarily increase their difficulty to turn by increasing their effective HD. There is indeed leeway.

 

[green slime]

Of course they stack. How efficient is the tactic of bolstering undead anyway? It only lasts for a few miserly minutes, and only prevents the good cleric from blowing them out of the water immediately. They don't gain any hit dice or anything, and are still dispatchable by other means (spells, swords, sunlight, and similar).

Almost a waste of an evil dude's rebuke ability.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Turning almost always happens early on and that's when bolstering is most likely to still be in effect. I agree that it's probably not the greatest buff, but what else is an evil cleric going to use his rebukes on? He's probably already created undead with spells (I doubt he's relying on rebukes to keep his undead minions in line).