Bonded Summoner - player & DM experiences?

[Urbanmech]

Is the character really able to enter the Bonded Summoner PrC at 3rd lv? Most PrC's require you to wait till at least 5th before you can enter them. That may help some of your problem if he got in too early. Then again I'm not all that familiar with the Minis Handbook.

 

[mikebr99]

Is the character really able to enter the Bonded Summoner PrC at 3rd lv? Most PrC's require you to wait till at least 5th before you can enter them. That may help some of your problem if he got in too early. Then again I'm not all that familiar with the Minis Handbook.

No, he entered it at 6th... after 3 Wizard levels and 2 Summoner levels... he's all about the summoning!


Mike

 

[mercucio]

Is the character really able to enter the Bonded Summoner PrC at 3rd lv? Most PrC's require you to wait till at least 5th before you can enter them. That may help some of your problem if he got in too early. Then again I'm not all that familiar with the Minis Handbook.

You are correct. The bonded summoner PrC *cannot* be entered until 5th level, as it has a requirement--Knowledge (planes) 8 ranks--that cannot be met until 5th level, even though the class only requires the ability to cast 2nd level spells. In addition the Summoner PrC from Relics and Rituals also requires that you have "8 ranks in the Knowledge skill dealing with the summoner's potential patron". Your player needs to drop two levels from his prestige classes to raise his wizard level to 5th in order to qualify for either prestige class. If he bitches about it, remind him he does get a bonus wizard feat at 5th level .

 

[Vidar]

You are correct. The bonded summoner PrC *cannot* be entered until 5th level, as it has a requirement--Knowledge (planes) 8 ranks--that cannot be met until 5th level, even though the class only requires the ability to cast 2nd level spells. In addition the Summoner PrC from Relics and Rituals also requires that you have "8 ranks in the Knowledge skill dealing with the summoner's potential patron". Your player needs to drop two levels from his prestige classes to raise his wizard level to 5th in order to qualify for either prestige class. If he bitches about it, remind him he does get a bonus wizard feat at 5th level .

I am the player in question... We had previously house ruled that +2 from skill focus counted towards the ranks required in a skill. Unless Mike has decided that is not the case in this campaign I assumed that during character creation. I am still waiting on him to get home from work to confirm that. If not a rework will need to be done. Regardless if I am 5th wiz/5th bonded summoner the elemental is still too powerful now, but I think corrects itself at later levels.

 

[Thanee]

That's why I'm here Thanee...

Well, if it's not totally gamebreaking, and I can't really see how an CR 7 elemental can be at 10th level, I'd just go with it...

He has only 7th caster level at 10th level now!

All his pretty summoning spells are one level below the current standard.
His summoned creatures only appear for 2/3 the duration.

To make up for it, he has his elemental buddy and some other benefits in relation to his chosen element.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Vidar]

Well, if it's not totally gamebreaking, and I can't really see how an CR 7 elemental can be at 10th level, I'd just go with it...

He has only 7th caster level at 10th level now!

All his pretty summoning spells are one level below the current standard.
His summoned creatures only appear for 2/3 the duration.

To make up for it, he has his elemental buddy and some other benefits in relation to his chosen element.

Bye
Thanee

I see the real problem as right now, but I proposed the HD progression be 1st Medium 4HD
3rd Large 8HD
5th Ex Large 12HD
7th Huge 16HD
9th Greater 21HD

Rather than the current (4,8,16,21,24(I think on the 24)) that the current gets It is the 16HD right now that is real choker and I think summoning spells are equally imbalanced with that jump on the summon monster charts.

 

[NilesB]

if it seems underpowered, how about giving it a d8 hit die and 3/4 BAB. It already seems to be somewhat a partial caster class anyway.

Also What do you think they mean by Arcane level? I wish they wouldn't use ambigous new terminology without defining it.

 

[Olive]

I don't have the book, but from what people are saying it sounds ok to me.

 

[Silveras]

if it seems underpowered, how about giving it a d8 hit die and 3/4 BAB. It already seems to be somewhat a partial caster class anyway.

The question is "Is it overpowered", not "is it underpowered".

Also What do you think they mean by Arcane level? I wish they wouldn't use ambigous new terminology without defining it.

The definition is right there under the table. Each column is explained. The first one defines "Arcane Level"

The class aims at a balance where a 6th level character could have a Medium elemental (4 HD) as a companion. An 8th level character could have a Large (8 HD), 10th a Huge (16 HD), 12th a Greater (21 HD), and 14th an Elder (24 HD). The CRs for those creatures are 3, 5, 7, 9, and 11. The big thing to note is that the CR climbs more slowly than the HD.

The key is to do an objective analysis of the Elemental compated to a regular Familiar, a Druid's Animal Companion, and a Paladin's Mount, taking into consideration things like utility (can a water elemental scout in the forest ?) and stealthiness (how subtle is a Large Fire Elemental ?). The class gives up 5 levels of spellcasting ability for this; it should be a companion that remains capable of helping as the CRs of the obstacles increase. However, as the party rises in level, that Elemental companion could be more of a hindrance than a help ... hedged out by Protection from XX spells, and so on. I am not sure of all the ramifications, but I don't think the class is overpowered except in the short term ... like the first Fighter in the party to get Cleave might seem overpowered until a few others get it.

 

[mercucio]

I am the player in question... We had previously house ruled that +2 from skill focus counted towards the ranks required in a skill. Unless Mike has decided that is not the case in this campaign I assumed that during character creation. I am still waiting on him to get home from work to confirm that. If not a rework will need to be done. Regardless if I am 5th wiz/5th bonded summoner the elemental is still too powerful now, but I think corrects itself at later levels.

Ah, there is the problem, and what causes the balance issue. By skipping two skill ranks you gain abilities two levels earlier than your fellow players. As for the wiz5/bs5, he's the right power level. Your typical 10th level PC fighter* can turn a a Huge elemental (any variety) into cheese whiz.

* Human Ftr10 CR 10; HD 10d10+30; HP 90; Init +6; Spd 30’; AC 28; BAB/Grppl: +10/+14; Atk +18/+13 longsword +2 (1d10+9); SA none; SQ none; AL N; SV Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +6. Stats: Str 18, Int 10, Wis 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Cha 12.
Feats: Combat Expertise, Cleave, Exotic Weapon (bastard sword), Great Cleave, Improved Critical (bastard sword), Improved Initiative, Improved Toughness, Luck of Heroes [PGF], Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bastard sword), Weapon Specialist (bastard sword). +2 more
Equipment: gauntlets of ogre strength +2, full plate +3, longsword +2, large shield +2, ring of resistance +2, amulet of natural armor +1. Potion of haste, heroism, potion of cure serious wounds (3d8+5) x3. +6k cash

Improved Toughness (CompWar): Gain HP equal to your HD. Each time your HD increase gain 1 hp.
Luck of Heroes (PGF): +1 luck bonus to all saves, AC.