D&D 5E Bonus action spell cast and readying to cast a spell

[Barolo]

So... it doesn't really cost resources in practice, then

No problem, I can go over my own claims again. At low levels it does not behave as "at will". I does cost a quite limited resource, as I mentioned in my example with the 5th level multiclass you chose not to quote.

At high levels yes, you do have enough resources that you could keep doing that as if it was "at will", but you probably have better things to do.

Sorry but now you're comparing to Wish and that is simply irrelevant.

I don't really understand where did you take I was comparing something to Wish. What I meant was to point out that in order to employ such tactic, the multiclass character is kept one spell level below a full spellcaster throughout most of their careers, which is a price to pay for the trick presented.

What I did was compare the rule on "only a cantrip after casting a bonus action spell" to FIGHTERS, and specifically "it's just as if there were a way for martials to use Extra Attack as a bonus action".

If you really mean to say "yes, that seems right" feel free to actually do that

I do not agree with that because even though a high level Warlock 2/Sorcerer X can effectively do this, it does have a cost, and it has drawbacks from the perspective of character development.

You also mention on your post #6:

This blows every weapon user clean out the water, except possibly GWM/SS feat users.

Which to me seems to imply that the possibility of such is very negative to the game (I may be misunderstanding you, if that is the case I apologize in advance).

What I am claiming, on the other hand, is that this is not even as good as full casters can do throughout their careers (even if not counting on strong "at wills"). And also that, at high enough levels when this tactic finally effectively behaves as "at will", the PC is probably better doing other things with their resources and combat rounds than spamming just that. Every round a 11 level Warlock 2/Sorcerer 9 spends casting double eldritch blast is a round they are not casting a 4th or 5th level spell, for instance.

 

[Barolo]

If that was what was intended, they failed to make the rules match: they're much more restrictive than that.

(...)

Here are some examples of situations where your RAI interpretation doesn't match the RAW:

(...)

Fireball and Counterspell
Your RAI: Not Allowed
RAW: Allowed

Shillelagh and Shield
Your RAI: Allowed
RAW: Not Allowed

Action Surge: Fireball and Fireball and Counterspell
Your RAI: Not Allowed
RAW: Allowed

(...)

Sorry for the nitpick, but aren't Shield and Counterspell reactions, happening out of your turn, and as such isn't the mentioned restriction not applicable?

 

[CapnZapp]

If that was what was intended, they failed to make the rules match: they're much more restrictive than that.

As it stands, if you cast any bonus action spell at all, even a cantrip, you're limited to only casting cantrips for the rest of the turn. Even if you use Action Surge, you still can't cast a levelled spell. Conversely, the rule fails to stop casting two levelled spells in a round when neither one is a bonus action (i.e. an action and a reaction), unless you also cast a bonus action spell the same round.

This is making my head hurt. Talk about going to extremes just to find corner cases!

First off, Shenron only said "it goes a little like this". He did not claim to present the full, exhaustive fool-proof rules text.

Then, his focus was on how you are supposed to only be able to cast one spell per round, just like you can only use the Attack action once per round.

Where he (or rather, the designers) went astray is in the "cantrip = attack" comparison. A cantrip scales with level, so it compares more with the attack action than any individual attack. A cantrip can be just as powerful as a full attack action that includes the Fighter's Extra Attack feature.

Finally, when he says "The consequential RAI is IMHO that there should never be 2 non-cantrip spells cast in the same round with normal combat rules" he clearly meant there should never be 2 regular action non-cantrip spells. To which I'm adding that what really should have been intended and implemented is that the only combination of two spells on your own turn should have been one levelled spell and one cantrip (whether the levelled spell is using your regular Cast Spell action and the cantrip is using the bonus action, or vice versa, is of lesser concern, especially since the pertinent solution would be to ALSO restrict you from using both Extra Attack and a Cantrip in the same turn)

So.

Yes, if you cast any bonus action spell at all, you're limited to casting a cantrip as your main action. That's what he said. Or meant. (As I've shown, cantrip + cantrip is too good anyway.)

The fact the language doesn't take Action Surge into account is hardly a major failing, and does definitely not deserve your characterization that RAW fails to match RAI. Action Surge isn't a standard spellcaster feature - whatever it gives us, should definitely be considered a bonus, rather than making the failure of Bonus Action Spells to take Action Surges into account a failure.

Nobody has been talking about reaction spells as if there should be a difference between slotted spells and cantrips, so I simply don't understand why you think the RAI means to prevent you from casting a slotted spell the same round as you cast a reaction spell like Counterspell.

Casting a bonus action spell does not prevent you from casting a reaction spell, since the RAW says "during the same turn" and not "during the same round". (You never cast reaction spells on the same turn as casting regular or bonus action spells, since you always cast regular and bonus action spells on YOUR turn, and always cast reaction spells on somebody else's turn).

So.

Shillelagh and Fireball
His RAI: Not Allowed, since he clearly didn't mean to allow you to cast two levelled spells on the same turn
RAW: Not Allowed

Fireball and Counterspell
His RAI: Allowed
RAW: Allowed
This has simply nothing to do with anything, since reactions never happen on the turn that bonus action spells restrict.

Shillelagh and Shield
His RAI: Not Allowed
RAW: Not Allowed

Action Surge: All these examples are clearly out of scope of any "RAI" discussion

 

[CapnZapp]

Sorry for the nitpick, but aren't Shield and Counterspell reactions, happening out of your turn, and as such isn't the mentioned restriction not applicable?

Yeah, you beat me on this

 

[CapnZapp]

"Ready action" still part of the same turn (Oficial Sage Advice in Wizards website), so, no, you can't do that.

That is true. But now we're talking about regular spells turned into reactions (by Ready Action), and not "true" reaction spells (=spells with a Casting Time of Reaction)

 

[CapnZapp]

At high levels yes, you do have enough resources that you could keep doing that as if it was "at will", but you probably have better things to do.

and

What I meant was to point out that in order to employ such tactic, the multiclass character is kept one spell level below a full spellcaster throughout most of their careers, which is a price to pay for the trick presented.

And to both these quotes I'm saying that... all of is is irrelevant, since if we treat this character as an alternative martial character, we still get better damage output than any other weapon

There is no "price" (or rather, there is, in less sturdiness, but that's something completely different).

You don't have "better things to do".

Not unless you consider every Fighter 20 to have "better things to do" because they could always have been a Wizard 20 instead, casting Fireball or Meteor Swarm or, indeed, Wish.

Now I hope I'm getting thru to you. Your objections aren't true costs, since we aren't trying to create a spellcaster here - we're designing the one character that can outperform Fighters at their own game, and the reason we can do that is because cantrip + cantrip isn't like two attacks, but more like two attack actions.

Or, more specifically, "just as if there were a way for martials to use Extra Attack as a bonus action"

What I am claiming, on the other hand, is that this is not even as good as full casters can do throughout their careers

But by that logic, any Fighter 20 is a bad deal, since that's not as good as a full caster either.

See? You keep comparing apples to oranges.

I, however, am comparing the round to round output of a martial with a special kind of build that outperforms that martial on his own home turf, that is, in the area of "doing stuff that isn't casting levelled spells".

No, it does not involve whacking things with sticks. It involves blasting things with eldritch force damage.

But what does it matter, when the latter does MORE attacks and MORE damage?

It still shows us that cantrip + cantrip is equivalent to "just as if there were a way for martials to use Extra Attack as a bonus action".

Whether you feel getting to do Extra Attack as a bonus action is a tad powerful, is a completely different question

 

[zaratan]

That is true. But now we're talking about regular spells turned into reactions (by Ready Action), and not "true" reaction spells (=spells with a Casting Time of Reaction)

Yes, I'm talking about that too:

"If you want to wait to act in response to something, take the Ready action, which lets you take part of your turn later." - SA Compendium

This spell is part of the same turn you casted the bonus action spell, so you can't cast a bonus action spell and ready another spell because that "reaction" occurs in the same turn.

 

[Barolo]

and


And to both these quotes I'm saying that... all of is is irrelevant, since if we treat this character as an alternative martial character, we still get better damage output than any other weapon

There is no "price" (or rather, there is, in less sturdiness, but that's something completely different).

You don't have "better things to do".

Not unless you consider every Fighter 20 to have "better things to do" because they could always have been a Wizard 20 instead, casting Fireball or Meteor Swarm or, indeed, Wish.

Now I hope I'm getting thru to you. Your objections aren't true costs, since we aren't trying to create a spellcaster here - we're designing the one character that can outperform Fighters at their own game, and the reason we can do that is because cantrip + cantrip isn't like two attacks, but more like two attack actions.

Or, more specifically, "just as if there were a way for martials to use Extra Attack as a bonus action"


But by that logic, any Fighter 20 is a bad deal, since that's not as good as a full caster either.

See? You keep comparing apples to oranges.

I, however, am comparing the round to round output of a martial with a special kind of build that outperforms that martial on his own home turf, that is, in the area of "doing stuff that isn't casting levelled spells".

No, it does not involve whacking things with sticks. It involves blasting things with eldritch force damage.

But what does it matter, when the latter does MORE attacks and MORE damage?

It still shows us that cantrip + cantrip is equivalent to "just as if there were a way for martials to use Extra Attack as a bonus action".

Whether you feel getting to do Extra Attack as a bonus action is a tad powerful, is a completely different question

Now I got it. Thanks for the patience. Anyhow, you pointed yourself that there is a price, albeit in another area. If the price is fair I don't know.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I'm sorry, but that is the limited view that makes this feature appear reasonable.

I wasn't talking about Action Surge and I didn't mean once per short rest.

I did mean exactly what I said: "it's just as if there were a way for martials to use Extra Attack as a bonus action"

When I said "as a bonus action" I meant EVERY round of EVERY combat ALL day long.

How so?

Well, what you really would do in actual play, is create a Warlock 2/Sorcerer X character that picks Agonizing Blast as an invocation, and Quicken Spell as a metamagic.

Then the key is to not cast any non-cantrip spells at all - instead you convert all your spell slots to sorcery points, and then you can put a LARGE amount of sorcery points into Quicken Spell.

The result is that you can cast two Eldritch Blast at 1d10+5 all day long, every round (barring unusually strange adventuring days). At level 5, this becomes four blasts and a 4d10+20 damage potential. At level 11, this becomes six blasts and a 6d10+30 damage potential. At level 17, you're looking at 8d10+40 damage using only cantrips.

This blows every weapon user clean out the water, except possibly GWM/SS feat users.

This is what I meant

[MENTION=61932]Barolo[/MENTION] had already covered most of what I was going to say, but here are a few additional thought.

For starters, your original statement was a blanket statement implying that any caster might pull this off, rather than a single corner-case build.

Secondly, if you have a problem with it, just don't use the optional multiclassing rules. Or, if it's just that one build, rule that you won't have its cheese stinking up your campaign (although I'd phrase it more nicely to the player).

Thirdly, this build takes a while to get rolling. It doesn't work prior to 4th level, and at that level you can only use it every other round I believe (away from my books atm) because you need to use your bonus action every other round to convert spell slots to sorcery points. It's not until 8th level (when you have 6 sorcery points) that you can maintain this for even a short encounter (3 rounds). It's 12th level before you can maintain it continuously through a longer (5 round) encounter. The campaign could realistically end, or the character could die, before you even get to those levels.

Fourth, you're a one trick pony. You can keep pace with the Sharpshooters, good for you. You're not as tough as a warrior and by making yourself one of the highest DPR members of the party, you make yourself a significant target (might not end well for you). You're certainly not as useful to the party as a real caster, given that you're hoarding your slots to power quicken.

Lastly, it's just DPR. To paraphrase [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION] there are better things to optimize.

 

[Xetheral]

Sorry for the nitpick, but aren't Shield and Counterspell reactions, happening out of your turn, and as such isn't the mentioned restriction not applicable?

You can cast reactions on your turn just fine if the trigger occurs. Counterspell is commonly used to counter another Counterspell, for example, and Shield is commonly used to defend against opportunity attacks. So if the RAI was indeed that you can't cast two leveled spells on the same turn, the RAW completely fails because it doesn't forbid leveled spells cast as a reaction.

This is making my head hurt. Talk about going to extremes just to find corner cases!

First off, Shenron only said "it goes a little like this". He did not claim to present the full, exhaustive fool-proof rules text.

...

Yes, if you cast any bonus action spell at all, you're limited to casting a cantrip as your main action. That's what he said. Or meant.

...

Casting a bonus action spell does not prevent you from casting a reaction spell, since the RAW says "during the same turn" and not "during the same round". (You never cast reaction spells on the same turn as casting regular or bonus action spells, since you always cast regular and bonus action spells on YOUR turn, and always cast reaction spells on somebody else's turn).

First, you're mischaracterizing Li Shenron, who said that: "The consequential RAI is IMHO that there should never be 2 non-cantrip (leveled) spells cast in the same round with normal combat rules".

Second, these are hardly corner cases. Land druids, for example, often want to cast Shillelagh and a leveled spell on the same turn, but RAW they can't due to the limitation on bonus action spells. Under Li Shenron's opinion of RAI, land druids should be able to do so because Shillelagh is a cantrip. So if they're right about the RAI, the RAW doesn't match.

Third, you absolutely can cast reaction spells on your own turn. That's the whole reason you can counterspell a counterspell.

Shillelagh and Fireball
His RAI: Not Allowed, since he clearly didn't mean to allow you to cast two levelled spells on the same turn
RAW: Not Allowed

Shillelagh isn't a leveled spell, it's a cantrip, so Li Shenron's RAI would permit this combination.

Fireball and Counterspell
His RAI: Allowed
RAW: Allowed
This has simply nothing to do with anything, since reactions never happen on the turn that bonus action spells restrict.

Incorrect. You might well want to Counterspell the enemy who is trying to Counterspell your fireball. Also, under Li Shenron's RAI, this shouldn't be allowed, even though RAW permits it.

Fireball and Counterspell
Shillelagh and Shield
His RAI: Not Allowed
RAW: Not Allowed

See above regarding Shillelagh and reactions.

Action Surge: All these examples are clearly out of scope of any "RAI" discussion

Li Shenron suggested Action Surge as an intended way to get around the limitation on casting two leveled spells in the same turn. But the rules don't permit that if you also cast a bonus action spell. So with Action Surge, RAW you can cast Fireball twice, but you can't cast Shillelagh and Fireball once. That result doesn't match Li Shenron's opinion of the RAI, under which both combinations should be permitted.