D&D 5E Bonus action spell cast and readying to cast a spell

[FormerlyHemlock]

Lastly, it's just DPR. To paraphrase [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION] there are better things to optimize.

Yep. It's nice to have a nova/burst capability so that when something unexpected happens (either an unexpected threat or an unexpected opportunity) you can respond to it either by killing it quickly or getting out of town; but flushing all of your tactical flexibility down the toilet in order to maximize your damage every round is probably a dumb idea. What's more likely to be useful to the party, an extra 40ish points of damage from Quickening Eldritch Blast four times, or turning someone into a T-Rex? 20 points of damage, or a Careful Web that hampers enemies but PCs are immune to?

Creating advantageous circumstances that basically wins the fight is better than partially-depleting the HP of one of the enemies in the fight.

As an aside, note that Quicken has a lot of defensive uses too. You can Quicken a spell and then Hide; or Quicken a spell and then Dodge or Dash away from danger. I notice these things because my preferred style puts a premium on staying alive, since staying alive isn't a guarantee, and dying can mean starting over from first level if there isn't another suitable character in your character tree already. (Whenever the active character gains a level, one of the PCs in the character tree of equal or lower level gains a level at the same time, earning enough XP from offscreen activities to bring him up to the necessary XP threshold.)

 

[Li Shenron]

If that was what was intended, they failed to make the rules match: they're much more restrictive than that.

As it stands, if you cast any bonus action spell at all, even a cantrip, you're limited to only casting cantrips for the rest of the turn. Even if you use Action Surge, you still can't cast a levelled spell. Conversely, the rule fails to stop casting two levelled spells in a round when neither one is a bonus action (i.e. an action and a reaction), unless you also cast a bonus action spell the same round.

Here are some examples of situations where your RAI interpretation doesn't match the RAW:

Shillelagh and Fireball
Your RAI: Allowed
RAW: Not Allowed

Fireball and Counterspell
Your RAI: Not Allowed
RAW: Allowed

Shillelagh and Shield
Your RAI: Allowed
RAW: Not Allowed

Action Surge: Fireball and Fireball and Counterspell
Your RAI: Not Allowed
RAW: Allowed

Action Surge: Fireball and Fireball and Shillelagh
Your RAI: Allowed
RAW: Not Allowed

Reaction spells are a thing of their own, since they're bound to some trigger. In fact I didn't mention them in my interpretation of the RAI. There are also maybe only 4 of them in the whole core game... It's ok that they can be cast on top of whatever you have already cast on your turn (and bonus action spells don't prevent reaction spells, which are almost always cast when it's not your turn anymore).

Shillelagh is as far as I know the only bonus action cantrip in the game. It's a bonus action because it only gives you a weapon, and clearly the designers meant this spell to be normally used in conjunction with an immediate attack. If it required an action, you'd have to wait next round to attack with it. Not a big deal that you can't cast it on the same round as Fireball, because you won't have time to still make an attack -> cast Shillelagh on next turn.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

You can cast reactions on your turn just fine if the trigger occurs. Counterspell is commonly used to counter another Counterspell, for example, and Shield is commonly used to defend against opportunity attacks. So if the RAI was indeed that you can't cast two leveled spells on the same turn, the RAW completely fails because it doesn't forbid leveled spells cast as a reaction.



First, you're mischaracterizing Li Shenron, who said that: "The consequential RAI is IMHO that there should never be 2 non-cantrip (leveled) spells cast in the same round with normal combat rules".

Second, these are hardly corner cases. Land druids, for example, often want to cast Shillelagh and a leveled spell on the same turn, but RAW they can't due to the limitation on bonus action spells. Under Li Shenron's opinion of RAI, land druids should be able to do so because Shillelagh is a cantrip. So if they're right about the RAI, the RAW doesn't match.

Third, you absolutely can cast reaction spells on your own turn. That's the whole reason you can counterspell a counterspell.



Shillelagh isn't a leveled spell, it's a cantrip, so Li Shenron's RAI would permit this combination.



Incorrect. You might well want to Counterspell the enemy who is trying to Counterspell your fireball. Also, under Li Shenron's RAI, this shouldn't be allowed, even though RAW permits it.



See above regarding Shillelagh and reactions.



Li Shenron suggested Action Surge as an intended way to get around the limitation on casting two leveled spells in the same turn. But the rules don't permit that if you also cast a bonus action spell. So with Action Surge, RAW you can cast Fireball twice, but you can't cast Shillelagh and Fireball once. That result doesn't match Li Shenron's opinion of the RAI, under which both combinations should be permitted.

Does the fact that RAW may not be perfectly in line with RAI surprise you somehow? There is a reason we use two different terms and not simply "the rules".

 

[CapnZapp]

Second, these are hardly corner cases. Land druids, for example, often want to cast Shillelagh and a leveled spell on the same turn, but RAW they can't due to the limitation on bonus action spells. Under Li Shenron's opinion of RAI, land druids should be able to do so because Shillelagh is a cantrip. So if they're right about the RAI, the RAW doesn't match.

How often does your druid characters want to do illegal combinations? I would have imagined that once you have been informed of how the game works, you'd stop thinking about things you can't do...

I still feel you're gaming Shenron's intent. No, you can't cast this cantrip and a leveled spell on the same round, because to do so you must cast the leveled spell as the bonus action.

I completely understand what he means when he says the intent is for you to be able to combine a levelled spell with a cantrip. And you can.

Just not in this case. Which doesn't negate the intent, because the intent for druids generally and Shillelagh specifically is for you to use your action to attack with the Shillelagh you've just produced.

That the Shillelagh designer was clever doesn't mean he's mischaracterisation the intent.

 

[CapnZapp]

never mind

 

[CapnZapp]

Li Shenron suggested Action Surge as an intended way to get around the limitation on casting two leveled spells in the same turn.

I wouldn't say that. I don't think the way Action Surge works or doesn't work with spells was a huge concern to the designers.

It does work for the most time. Good enough.

But the rules don't permit that if you also cast a bonus action spell.

So don't...?

So with Action Surge, RAW you can cast Fireball twice, but you can't cast Shillelagh and Fireball once. That result doesn't match Li Shenron's opinion of the RAI, under which both combinations should be permitted.

Please don't tell other people what their opinions are.

My opinion is that the RAI matches the RAW just fine, and that Shillelagh is an exception only (that's working fine too).

In fact, my opinion is that the RAI is for Shillelagh not to work together with Fireball. And hey, it doesn't.

 

[Barolo]

You can cast reactions on your turn just fine if the trigger occurs. Counterspell is commonly used to counter another Counterspell, for example, and Shield is commonly used to defend against opportunity attacks. So if the RAI was indeed that you can't cast two leveled spells on the same turn, the RAW completely fails because it doesn't forbid leveled spells cast as a reaction.

I guess I saw a glitch were there were none. You nailed it.