Bonus Stacking

[Shadeydm]

My question for the rules forum is in regard to the feat Force of Personality (CAV p.109) and if it should stack with the hexblade ability Arcane Resistance (CW p.7). I cannot find any reason by RAW why these should not stack(admittedly it might be there right under my nose), yet I have strong reservations against this combo.

It just seems wrong to me that the same ability bonus should be added twice on a single die roll. I have been searching around trying to find other instances where the same ability bonus would do this with no luck. In general adding an ability bonus twice just seems too good and if you add in a stat boosting spell which would also count twice it seems insanely good.

Should it be allowed, and would you allow it? Are there other examples of the same ability bonus being allowed to stack like this and if so what are they? I just get the feeling that this is a naturally occuring oversight, a byproduct of the large number of books with new rules/classes/feats which have been put out for this edition of the game. It feels like its just an inevitable mistake because these designers probably cannot forsee every possible bad combination when there are soo many options.

 

[nittanytbone]

Sure, it stacks, just like a Paladin could use a similar combination.

Hexblades and paladins are already feat-poor (for a martial warrior) and have more MAD than a typical martial warrior (due to the need to pump CHA). Force of Personality allows them to reduce MAD but at the expense of a precious feat.

 

[Shadeydm]

So outside of Force of Personality what other examples of the same ability bonus stacking twice on a single die roll are there? Like when can a fighter count his strength bonus twice or a rogue count his dex bonus twice etc?

 

[nittanytbone]

Check this out - http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889

"X stat to Y bonus"

 

[Shadeydm]

Sorry I don't see the connection.

Anyone else care to take a stab at this?

 

[nittanytbone]

Sorry I don't see the connection.

Anyone else care to take a stab at this?

The connection is that there are dozens of ways to either substitute an ability score or double stack an ability score.

- A fighter can use Brutal Throw to use STR instead of DEX with thrown weapons. He gets to use his STR mod twice, to hit and for damage.
- Channeled Rage lets you use STR for Will saves. A half-orc paladin could take that and double dip. Or a barbarian could use STR for his to hits, damage, and will saves.
- Champions of Corellon can add DEX for damage.
- Swashbucklers can add INT to damage in addition to STR, and they use DEX or STR to hit with finessable weapons, whichever is better.
- Crossbow Sniper lets someone use DEX to hit and for damage.
- A deepwarden can use CON to add to AC and his HP.

The point is that there are a ton of feats, spells, prestige classes, and templates that allow you to reduce MAD (multiple attribute dependency). Combining some of these abilities with certain class features allows one to "double dip" and add the same ability score multiple times or use one ability score for hitting and damage or somesuch.

Generally, they are quite balanced.
- MAD is a balancing factor in and of itself. It is more difficult to build a well rounded monk or paladin than it is a capable barbarian. If your campaign is 25 point buy (or close to it), then that is a big limiting factor for many MAD dependent classes. If your campaign features much higher ability scores or much lower ability scores, then some of these combinations might be differently balanced. For example, in a game with low ability scores, it is very advantageous to only have to rely on one or two key abilities for most of your abilities.

- Many of the abilities shore up classic weaknesses and tie up significant character resources. For example, Force of Personality is mainly of interest for CHA based characters (it has to be better than 14 to beat out Iron Will) with low will saves. So, that's pretty much Paladins, Hexblades, and social rogues. All of these classes happen to be really short on feats, though. So, expending a feat to shore up this weakness is a significant price to pay.

- These feats also open up a few new character archetypes that might be harder to build otherwise. For example, Weapon Finesse allows a nimble dextrous rogue to be effective. Force of Personality allows a charismatic barbarian warlord to be competitive with one who focused on STR instead.

- Many of these abilities focus on lesser used ability scores. For example, CHA is often a dump stat, especially for martial characters. Force of personality makes higher CHA (perhaps someone who wants to take Leadership later) a better idea. Ditto for a Swashbuckler's Intuitive Strike (making INT more attractive).

RAW, Force of Personality and a paladin's bonus to saves or a Hexblades spell resistances definitely stack. I doubt its too overpowered for any game. But there's always rule 0, and the GM can rule out something that he thinks won't work.

 

[Hypersmurf]

To me, it's highly dependent on the wording of the ability.

If we have two abilities that say "add Charisma bonus to AC", that's two named bonuses with the same name - Charisma bonus - which don't stack.

If we have one ability that says "Add Charisma bonus to AC", one that says "Add Charisma bonus as a deflection bonus to AC", one that says "Add a bonus equal to Charisma bonus to AC", and one that says "Add Charisma bonus to one's Dexterity bonus to AC", that's three named bonuses with different names - Charisma bonus, deflection bonus, and Dexterity bonus - and one unnamed bonus, all of which stack. If we also had an ability that said "Add Constitution bonus to AC instead of Dexterity bonus", though, we would have to choose between the Con bonus, or the Dex + Cha bonus... since the "Add Cha bonus to Dex bonus to AC" ability would not improve one's Con bonus to AC.

-Hyp.

 

[Thurbane]

Sure, it stacks, just like a Paladin could use a similar combination.

Hexblades and paladins are already feat-poor (for a martial warrior) and have more MAD than a typical martial warrior (due to the need to pump CHA). Force of Personality allows them to reduce MAD but at the expense of a precious feat.

OK, I keep seeing MAD on the forums, I assume it's to do with ability distribution, can someone enlighten me as to what it actually stands for?

 

[Diirk]

To me, it's highly dependent on the wording of the ability.

Arcane Resistance: At 2nd level, a hexblade gains a bonus equal to his charisma bonus (minimum +1) on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.

Force of Personality: You add your charisma modifier (instead of your wisdom modifier) to Will saves against mind-affecting spells and abilities.

Wisdom (PHB pg 9): You apply your wisdom's modifier to: Will saving throws (for negating the effect of charm person and other spells).

Also, Divine Grace: At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

and Dark Blessing: A blackguard applies his charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus on all saving throws.

They all appear to be unnamed bonuses, so I don't see any reason why a Paladin of Slaughter / Hexblade / Blackguard with Force of Personality couldn't apply his charisma modifier 4x to spells such as charm person. Note that force of personality is actually a somewhat crappy feat anyway, as it only applies to mind affecting will saves... and many will saves aren't mind affecting.

Also something odd, the way the qualifier to the wisdom attribute description reads... you're only meant to add your wisdom to will saves on spells ! wtf. I'm thinking thats just a poor choice of words ...

 

[Hypersmurf]

They all appear to be unnamed bonuses, so 7I don't see any reason why a Paladin of Slaughter / Hexblade / Blackguard with Force of Personality couldn't apply his charisma modifier 4x to spells such as charm person.

Force of Personality and Dark Blessing are both, by my reading, named bonuses - namely, Charisma bonus.

Divine Grace is an unnamed bonus, that happens to have a value equal to the paladin's Charisma bonus; likewise Arcane Resistance.

So while I read Divine Grace to stack with either Force of Personality or Dark Blessing, I read Force of Personality and Dark Blessing as named bonuses with the same name, which therefore don't stack with each other.

-Hyp.