Book of 9 Swords:Have you gone back to base classes?

[SteveC]

I managed to play a Crusader up to level six before our campaign died (see my thread on this in general) but here's what I found:

The crusader is a brutal tank. He is extremely difficult to take down, although our GM managed to do it a couple times. My GM was actually surprised at how difficult it was to kill the character. At the same time...

...the Crusader's powers all apply based on hitting the target. There were entire game sessions where I was unable to use any of my powers (beyond the stances, which I used to draw attacks to me) because I couldn't roll to hit.

In the end, I think the class turned out to be balanced with the rest of the group for the duration of the campaign, but if I had rolled better, it might have been a touch overpowered. The rest of the players in the game didn't think the character was too tough at all.

Would I play a fighter in a Bo9S world? Sure! Martial Stances and Maneuvers can be gained by spending a feat, and they're both fighter bonus feats. Sounds good to me!

--Steve

 

[shilsen]

..and given what we know about your game, we know your players are having a blast. ...or getting blasted. I forget.

Both. It's a zero sum game

Although I agree that the player has lots to do with how exciting/boring/balanced/etc a combat is, let's not forget the DMs share of the blame. I don't know how many times I've seen a DM House Rule unbalance a game.

Sure, but I think that's a much broader subject than the one here. I definitely think that the number of DMs with lots of house rules in their games is much higher than the number of DMs with lots of house rules in their games who also understand every ramification of those changes.

Currently - and given my own set of House Rules ()

I ain't saying nothing

- I view the ToB:Bo9S Martial Adepts as balanced. More-or-less. With a slight hedge. 'Cause maybe they need more work....

I'll say the slight hedging is justified. I think the Bo9S classes right out of the book are significantly stronger than the other melee classes using just the PHB. But since the Bo9S itself is a supplement, that's an unfair comparison. Compare Bo9S classes with the pHB melee classes once you've allowed PHB2 and a few other supplements, and the gap lessens drastically, even if the Bo9S classes are using those supplements too. In short, I think the Bo9S presents three strong melee classes. But they're not strong enough to overshadow the PHB martial classes if the DM exercises a little judgement. Hmm - I guess you're right. It does come back to the DM after all

 

[Tock Chandler]

My campaigns are about half below 7th and half above. I have no problem with wizards eventually having a more powerful single attack than a fighter, or a cleric, I guess, though you kind of have to specifically powergame for that to happen. I'm not sure what a COD or whatever is, but it sounds like another powergamer that'd be happier with Bo9S.

 

[Arkhandus]

......

CoDzilla is internet slang for Cleric or Druid 'zilla, as in clerics and druids being like Godzilla in strength and power (str? Righteous Might/Wild Shape. power? Flame Strike/Fire Seeds/Firestorm/etc.).

A cleric just needs to cast one or two buffing spells before entering melee, or a druid Wild Shape and cast a spell with Natural Spell, to become superior to a fighter in melee combat. Or at least on-par with them, if nothing else. And still retain the variety of spells remaining in their repertoire.

Just saying, you don't need to powergame to overpower a cleric or druid, just using the core rules even. Martial adepts aren't any worse, and by the time clerics or druids come into their full power (overshadowing other folks almost constantly, rather than just for short periods), the martial adepts are quite decent but not nearly as strong.

Really, the most broken things any martial adept can do is just to boost the party's clerics, druids, sorcerers, and wizards with White Raven Tactics or Warmaster's Charge. By themselves, the martial adepts don't break those maneuvers (with the possible exception of WRT used by a group of warblades round after round; but how often does an entire group actually choose to make all of their characters practically identical?).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well dannyalcatrez, from the look of things 4e martial classes will all favor bo9s elements, i.e. all martial classes will have menuver/powers every level. I can understand why people don't like this, but it does seem to be the case for 4e.

Bo9S in the context of 3.5Ed base characters does absolutely zero for me.

Bo9S type mechanics in 4Ed- where they are open to all warrior types- may work.

 

[Nail]

Just saying, you don't need to powergame to overpower a cleric or druid, just using the core rules even.

That's not true ....depending on what you mean by "powergame". Surely "powergame" means something other than "using supplements"..

 

[Nifft]

That's not true ....depending on what you mean by "powergame". Surely "powergame" means something other than "using supplements"..

I think he means "even a naive build can be turned into a monster". Unless you somehow trade away your caster levels... then you're potentially screwed.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nail]

I think he means "even a naive build can be turned into a monster".

I've got experience DMing "naive" builds of Clerics and Druids. If that's what he means, I'm afraid I can't agree with him.

 

[Nifft]

I've got experience DMing "naive" builds of Clerics and Druids. If that's what he means, I'm afraid I can't agree with him.

Did they by any chance violate the snipped stipulation?

-- N

 

[Arkhandus]

Y'know, Righteous Might and such are not so obscure or inobvious as to count as 'powergaming' just by noticing them and casting them. It's like an improved version of Bull's Strength at first glance. Any cleric that isn't just focused on being the mindless healbot will think "hey, that's neat, it'll help me fight better."

It's only powergaming if you plan on making the most of such stuff and/or don't decide that you shouldn't be using it because it makes the party's fighter sulk about being weak and useless. Assuming there's even a fighter in your group to get upset over it. Otherwise you won't really think about it much and just be glad that you can be the melee guy for your fighter-less group.