Book of Exalted Deeds - I don't get it...

[DonAdam]

I'm sure it's going to be influenced by Christian (primarily Catholic) morality, which has always been by far the biggest influence on alignment & morality in D&D as far as I can see. Hence the sex=vile=evil equation of BOVD.

I won't say anything about this other than that you are totally misrepresenting Christian, and especially Catholic, doctrine on sex.

 

[Anubis the Doomseer]

EDIT: And where does it ever imply that sex is evil? It implies the necrophilia, bestiality and rape are evil... but... well... they are. It never says anything about sex between two consenting people being evil.

It is, however, the only book to ever really mention sex and sexuality, and then in a negative light as you correctly point out.

If the only time a game line I write about discussed a topic was to point out the wrong bits of it - the inference can be drawn that the topic itself is negative.

- Ma'at

edit: I should note that unlike some who are somewhat in agreement with me on this front, I do both own and have read the book. Sex is not the only thing in the book, however, this is the only core WoTC book I won that has sex discussed in it. The fact that it has sex in it is not the crux of my argument. T

he Vile book is simply a very juvenile, purile, superficial look at evil as antagonist - it is not a very good book at all with this regard since it adds nothing to the discussion of evil in Dungeons and Dragons. The book does try to spend time on the nature of evil but doesn't answer the most basic questions about it: for example - why would someone become evil willingly in a world where the forces of supernatural good are physically present AND can be shown to be of greater power (a Solar versus a Balor/Pit Fiend). Do they see themselves as evil? Can one be evil and yet serve a greater good? Can one believe they are good and yet truly be evil? Does a single act of evil make one evil - if not then at what point does one become evil?(this particular question I can see having an immediate crunch-based effect on table top playing) and so on.

 

[S'mon]

Heh. Well, if you're interested in that sort of thing, check out www.valarproject.com and their upcoming Book of Erotic Fantasy.

Not for my current game, thanks! In general I really don't think D&D is a good system or genre for dealing with sex in any but the most abstract terms.

Edit: Just to make clear, I don't have any objection to D&D's moral tropes. They're different from eg the paganism underlying Runequest/Glorantha, but make for an easy to grasp and fun setting. Arguably the black & white morality of the good-evil axis is better suited to Tolkienesque high fantasy than to the pulp sword & sorcery I favour, but that's another matter.

 

[PowerWordDumb]

Even lawful good creatures have to break a few eggs so to speak.

I agree completely. However, many of the moralists who enjoy posting in the "is this act evil?" or "Paladin-ey definitions of good" threads would have you believe that the only truly good thing to do is to take the eggs home and nurture them until they hatch. Then of course, attempt to raise whatever horrible creature hatched from them in a morally upright and loving environment - because that's really the best use of limited Paladin resources, as we all know. All else is moral relativism, right?

*snort*

 

[CrusaderX]

I won't say anything about this other than that you are totally misrepresenting Christian, and especially Catholic, doctrine on sex.

Agreed, he's absolutely misrepresenting it. Somebody definitely needs to read a Catechism.

 

[Dispater]

I fail to see the point with these books, when alignement IMHO is the most over-rated aspect of D&D.

 

[Olive]

I fail to see the point with these books, when alignement IMHO is the most over-rated aspect of D&D.

I'm guessing you haven't read the BoVD? cos most of the book is fiend stats, and rules for possesion, ritual sacrifice and fiend worship. That's the point.

Now as for the BoVD presenting sex as evil, well the other part that backs that up is that consensual sadism/masochism is presented as an evil act. And while not to my tastes, i certainly won't describe it as evil. The sexual stuff is the worst part of the BoVD IMHO, but there's very little of it.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Maybe it might have something along the lines of those Babylonian prostitute-priestesses of Ishtar, somewhere in the book. I'm sure there not trying to go for one type of good. There are after all three good alignments.

 

[skinnydwarf]

I was not a fan of the BOVD, but I am looking forward to the BOED. I would like to see a mature discussion of morality.


-Psiblade

Then go down to your local bookstore, look in the "Philosophy" section and look for books on ethics. I recommend Peter Singer (his "Practical Ethics" is very good). Or take a class on ethics, or look at a good University bookstore.

 

[nikolai]

I've a question: does the BoVD actually contain much of a discussion of the motivations of fiends and how to use them in campaigns? Does it tell you of the PCs and the material plane can get caught up in their wiles and intrigues? I'm looking for stuff on how the forces of evil fight their eternal battle with the forces of good - that sort of stuff would really be useful to me.

But, so far, I've got the impression that the BoVD is actually quite immature stuff.

As for the BoVD/BoED I think that they could be a really useful addition to D&D (of course, whether they are is another question). Loads of fantasy is based around cosmological battles between good and evil - I'm not even going to bother listing examples - some books that explore this would be great.

As for discussions of morality. I hope they do a very "Catholic" take on things. I won't pretend to know much about moral philosophy - but I think a modern take on things (e.g. utilitarianism) would just be out of place, and a battle of good vs. evil doesn't really work from, say, a buddhist perspective.

nikolai.