Book of Nine Swords -- okay?

Leugren said:
Enlighten me, please. Beyond the acquisition of better magic items...
This qualification does a lot of work, doesn't it? High-level D&D characters--especially non-spellcasters--need magic items to inflict and avoid damage. But let's run some numbers real quick.

Anyway, let's say Jane Melee is a raging fighter 12/barbarian 3 fighting an evil opponent. She's got a Strength of 22 (or 26 when raging) and a pair of +4 holy shortswords, and the weapon-specific feats up to Greater Specialization, plus Improved Critical (shortsword), Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Two-Weapon Rend. So she's reasonably optimized for damage, but far from really fine-tuned. She's really at her best when she can make a full attack, though.

So she attacks at +27/+27/+22/+22/+17, and deals 3d6+16 points of damage with her primary hand and 3d6+12 on her off-hand. She's attacking AC 30, so she can expect to get 1.95 hits with her primary hand and 1.55 hits with her off-hand. That's 51.675 points of average damage with her off-hand and 34.875 points with her off-hand, for a total expected damage of 86.55. If she hits at least once with each hand, which she very likely will, she can also rend for an extra 15.5 points (1d6+12); she can also expect to deal a total of 12.41 points of damage from critical hits. So that's a total of more than 110 points of damage on a full attack!

Now let's take her friend, Johnny Mage, a wizard 15 who casts a quickened, empowered scorching ray followed by an empowered cone of cold. His three empowered rays do 1.5*(4d6) points of damage apiece (average 21), but need ranged touch attacks to hit; his cone of cold deals 1.5*(15d6) points of damage (average 78.75), but offers a reflex save. If all three attacks hit and his target fails its saving throw, Johnny deals 141.75. This is nontrivially more damage than Jane, but Johnny can probably only do this once a day, and his expected damage goes way down if his target makes its saving throw against the cone, or one or more of the rays miss, or the target has energy or spell resistance--all serious possibilities at Johnny's level.

In any case, Jane certainly shouldn't feel useless, or significantly underpowered. Are these characters really atypical?
 

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Thats only comparing by damage though. Not every second is spent in combat. Teleport & other obstacle overcoming spells, battlefield control, divinations, restoratives, shelters -- are all spellcaster applications that factor in balancing classes.
 

Not to mention the dealiest attacks don't usually involve damage. Who needs damage when you can point your pinky at a troll and reduce it to dust or turn it into stone? Most melee classes (and various monsters) are hideously vulnerable to Will saves: a Hold Monster means they're as good as (or even better, in the case of Dominate and Charm spells) dead. Damage is a poor way to compare spellcasters and other classes, because spellcasters can trancend simple damage and get right to the killing part, even if you ignore all their ability to rewrite the battlefield with a single action.
 

comrade raoul said:
This qualification does a lot of work, doesn't it? High-level D&D characters--especially non-spellcasters--need magic items to inflict and avoid damage. But let's run some numbers real quick.

Anyway, let's say Jane Melee is a raging fighter 12/barbarian 3 fighting an evil opponent. She's got a Strength of 22 (or 26 when raging) and a pair of +4 holy shortswords, and the weapon-specific feats up to Greater Specialization, plus Improved Critical (shortsword), Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Two-Weapon Rend. So she's reasonably optimized for damage, but far from really fine-tuned. She's really at her best when she can make a full attack, though.

So she attacks at +27/+27/+22/+22/+17, and deals 3d6+16 points of damage with her primary hand and 3d6+12 on her off-hand. She's attacking AC 30, so she can expect to get 1.95 hits with her primary hand and 1.55 hits with her off-hand. That's 51.675 points of average damage with her off-hand and 34.875 points with her off-hand, for a total expected damage of 86.55. If she hits at least once with each hand, which she very likely will, she can also rend for an extra 15.5 points (1d6+12); she can also expect to deal a total of 12.41 points of damage from critical hits. So that's a total of more than 110 points of damage on a full attack!

Now let's take her friend, Johnny Mage, a wizard 15 who casts a quickened, empowered scorching ray followed by an empowered cone of cold. His three empowered rays do 1.5*(4d6) points of damage apiece (average 21), but need ranged touch attacks to hit; his cone of cold deals 1.5*(15d6) points of damage (average 78.75), but offers a reflex save. If all three attacks hit and his target fails its saving throw, Johnny deals 141.75. This is nontrivially more damage than Jane, but Johnny can probably only do this once a day, and his expected damage goes way down if his target makes its saving throw against the cone, or one or more of the rays miss, or the target has energy or spell resistance--all serious possibilities at Johnny's level.

In any case, Jane certainly shouldn't feel useless, or significantly underpowered. Are these characters really atypical?
You didn't talk about how that 78.75 damage can apply to many targets at once. That's a strength of a mage -- area effect damage.

But what about real strength of a mage? How about something as simple as finger of death. If the save is failed, then the target immediately dies. Yes there are ways to be immune to this, but that's pretty potent. Now if you want *real* damage, why don't we talk about a split disintegrate? At 20 CL it occupies an 8th level slot and deals 80d6 damage. That's around 280 damage on average. Now we're talking a huge difference between the fighter and the mage (damage wise).

But what about saves, SR, and other spell defenses?!

Fine, orb of fire at 15 CL deals 15d6 damage no save, no SR, and it requires a touch attack, which isn't too hard to make. Since it's only 4th level, you can metamagic the crap out of it. Not only that, but it also dazes the target on a failed for save! Empower brings the damage up to around 75 for the low cost of 6th level slot. But wait a minute, you let your barbarian invest a crap load of feats, so I think I will too.

How about Arcane Thesis (Orb of Fire) + Empower Spell + Searing Spell + Enervate Spell. That's four feats, 1 of which is very specific, but 4 of which are useful almost all spells.

With all of those metamagic feats (and arcane thesis) our spell still only occupies a 6th level slot. It deals half damage to any creature with fire immunity or any non-living creature. It deals +100% damage to any living creature with anything but fire immunity (ignores all resistance).

Overall it deals 30d6 damage to a living target, that's 104 damage on average, comparable to your fighter. It only requires a touch attack and has no save (for the damage), no SR, and on a failed save it dazes the target. The Daze effect is key, because that takes out the target for a round allowing the other party members to beat on him without fear of consequences. Even better is the fact that if conjured outside an Antimagic Field, it can still affect targets with in an anti-magic field because instantaneous conjurations function within an antimagic field.

Sure you can't go around throwing these things all day long, but you can chuck quite a few of them. If you're still itching to deal damage, you can add another feat: arcane thesis (fireball) and mix in the standards: searing spell, empower spell, and enervate spell. Since fireball is of third level, you can use use it in conjunction with spell matrix. If we use a 9th level spell matrix (greater) and 3 such fireballs we can now blast 4 such fire balls in a round. That's 80d6 fire damage (40d6 fire to creatures immune to fire & full damage to resistant targets). 80d6 (average 280) fire damage to all targets in a 20 foot radius at long range. Sure it depletes a lot of your resources (1 9th level slot, 4 fifth level slots) but you can pretty much wipe out an opposing army in a single swift + standard action.

A 20th level mage could probably preform this nova tactic 4/day. Given that the standard number of encounters per day is around 4, that's not too bad. Mages are capable of ending an encounter in a single round, warriors are not.

But that's not all! Mages can also prepare fun spells like domination, which not only eliminates enemies but adds one more to your numbers. They can conjure undead or outsiders and then polymorph them into greater beings. The utility and power of an arcanist is unmatched by a warrior.
 

I've got a question for everyone: is there any way a core only build of any class can stand up to optional classes and feats brought in through supplements? Yes, even including the allegedly unbalanced Druid and Cleric...just curious.
 

I tried really hard to limit the characters to fairly mainstream abilities from the Player's Handbook and the Player's Handbook II--the sorts of things I'd include in a campaign, and that represent mainstream--rather than super-optimized--characters. (The fighter/barbarian doesn't have Melee Weapon Mastery, for example, because I think it's too good when interpreted as stacking with everything else.) That's why I tried to avoid the "orb" spells (and spell matrix), or the use of Arcane Thesis to stack lots of metamagic effects, which I take to be much too good compared to core material. (I could've made Jane a dervish or something, for example.)

However, you (and Solarious, and Thanatos) are definitely right that spellcasters have a bunch of options combat characters don't: they can take characters with weak Fortitude or Will saves right out of a fight fairly readily, and they can do very interesting and useful things outside of combat. But Jane also has other advantages--she's got way more hitpoints and, probably, a significantly better AC than Johnny. She can stand up to a nasty monster for a few rounds; Johnny can't, really (though he can certainly use his magic to get away). This is a nontrivial difference when it comes to combat.
 

Thurbane said:
I've got a question for everyone: is there any way a core only build of any class can stand up to optional classes and feats brought in through supplements? Yes, even including the allegedly unbalanced Druid and Cleric...just curious.
Thurbane, it's difficult to tell. It depends on what kind of supplements you bring in, what classes you talk about, and especially how many supplements you introduce. Without more information, and which classes are being compared to which, there is no way to answer your question. That being said, CoDzilla is perfectly capable of holding their own... but it is entirely possible to crush a pure core Codzilla under the weight of the Law of Unintended Consequences (which states that all splatbooks are subject to reinterpetation, obliteration of the spirit of the rules, and their combined material stacking in Unintended manners not unlike mixing barrels of nitro with a hot flame). Another factor is preperation time: all divine classes have aces in triplicate in the buffing department, and seriously skews power comparisons.

Keep in mind that the real power of the core classes is that all supplements, by design and neccessity, have to include material that caters to the core classes. Of course, they benefit the most from the Law of Unintended Consequences, since there is more material for the home team than anything else.

comrade raoul said:
But Jane also has other advantages--she's got way more hitpoints and, probably, a significantly better AC than Johnny. She can stand up to a nasty monster for a few rounds; Johnny can't, really (though he can certainly use his magic to get away). This is a nontrivial difference when it comes to combat.
Please. Johnny will try to enter combat with a few protective measures whenever possible. The most effective of these is miss chances... because they all have the same effect regardless of your AC. Mirror Image, Displacement, Improved Mirror Image (from the PHBII), and (Improved) Invisibility to name a few. These spells work the numbers against their opponents, and you don't need too much time in order to back off and throw out enough high damage spells, a save-or-die, or a disabling spell that shuts the danger switch off. Besides, every mage worth their salt will have Dimention Door for a fast retreat as resources allow, and most will also have alternate methods of movement, such as the ubiquitous Fly. This is why initiative is so important at high levels: the first to act will have the first chance to start throwing out those save-or-dies at the most critical targets.

And as perviously stated, hp matters much less when you are either alive or dead (effectively), and AC really is trivial when touch is the most important AC of all.
 

Felon said:
Why don't you two crazy kids get together and hash out which of the above you want to sign off on? Because that little dance of the ToB defenders is just a little fatiguing now.

"Warriors were underpowered. ToB gave them a much-needed boost."

"Warriors have always been more powerful. ToB didn't actually increase the power level."
I never said warriors were more powerful. I said they could do more damage.

The two hardly go hand in hand.

As I said above, which you ignored, it is not the wizard's ability to deal prolific amounts of damage which makes it powerful. It is the fact that they can make themselves useful in every single situation other than the oh so drull "dead-magic zone."
 

My swordsage is mopping the floor with many NPCs, but really has a bit of a glass jaw.
The sorceror in the party, however, can't take nearly the abuse, but hands out up to twice the damage I do, round after round, and is able to single target blast just like me, or spread it around. Seems pretty balanced to me.
The polymorph specialist wizard in our party has been the frontline fighter for a long time, and my old psychic warrior could never compete with his damage output in melee, though I did have more hit points (mostly thanks to vigor, which I blew most of my PP on just to be a meat shield). My swordsaage outdamages him by a fair bit now, but the wizard's AC while morphing is through the roof, so there is balace there as well. I think we both have similar hit points now too. He also just gained Power Attack, and has Wraithstrike, so the numbers may well swing back in his favor. I took the maneuver that lets me do a standard action attack as a touch attack, so I can do the Full Power Attack smack and tumble away, once, then I have to switch it up to something else until I run low and Adaptive Style my stuff back. Which I've done 2 times in the 3 sessions of playing him, with about 4 fights per session average. Although, I did recently gain Robilard's Gambit, so that my tilt the balance a bit as well.
 

hmm...

It seems like there are a various set of arguments being made at the same time, and they all vary based on the assumptions you are making.

Are fighters more powerful than casters? Pre/post TOB doesnt change this
-Single target
=If optimized correctly with access to extremely good equipment, they can do more single target damage AND take more damage
+BUT if not optimized, they can not. Also, casters can bypass HP/AC of most creatures. ALSO casters have FAR more ways to AVOID taking any damage.
-Multi target
=A resounding NO
-Versatility
=A resounding NO


Are TOB classes better than the fighter?
-Damage output
=In a "low power" low magic non-optimized campagin, YES
=In a "high power" high magic non-optimized campaign, ????
=In any sort of optimized campaign, NO

-Versatility
=In most situations YES, though a fighter would likely have nearly as much in combat versatility. TOB classes are 100% more useful out of combat.

-Do they make fighters obsolete power wise?
=In the most non-optimized campaigns... maybe, but it is exactly in those types of campaigns power level shouldnt matter much as a decision maker (else CoDzilla would be banned)
=In all other campaigns, NO



SUMMARY: The answer depends on your level of optimization and the availability of magic items. A naked caster >>>>>>>> a naked fighter of ANY sort. Plus, its REALLY hard to gimp a caster. Also, in a non low-magic campaign fighters and ToB classes are far more balanced.
 

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