Book of Nine Swords -- okay?

[Victim]

They're basically once per combat - although a warblade may be able to recover them depending on how long the combat lasts - but an unlimited number of times per day.

 

[Slaved]

Putting aside how often they can be used how often are they useful?

Going from my experience with them in one game and anothers experience in a different game white raven tactics is usually only good about once per battle.

Basically it changes one of your teammates initiative to be one less than yours and allows them to act on that initiative, so using it once on someone who beat you in initiative allows them to go a certain number of counts faster than they would have anyway.

It really helps set up certain tactical situations so long as you do not mind your characters standing very close to one another but once you have done it a single time that character basically cannot benefit from it again this combat which leaves the rest of your party and it does not always help whoever you might be trying to use it on.

I have no experience with Iron Heart Surge though. I think there was a thread on it not too long ago though.

 

[Faerl'Elghinn]

At first glance, it seems overpowered (especially the Warblade and Bloodstorm Blade). Then again, so did the EPH to a lot of people--a sentiment from which I personally have yet to be dissuaded. Number of available spells/powers per day aside, the sheer amount of damage a Psion, Metamind, Psychic Warrior, or Warmind (especially high-level Kineticist/Metaminds and Psy War 1 [for Knowledge Psionics]/Ftr 4/Warmind 10's) can deal in a single round compared to characters of other classes at their levels is absurd, IMO. Although they may "burn out" faster than other classes, parties in which I've participated have generally forgone the "four encounters per day" guideline in favor of the "I need to rest now" strategy, thus essentially negating the aforementioned drawback.

In contrast to psionic characters, Warblades can continue to beat the holy living crap out of their opponents until the cows come home, slaughter a few of them for dinner, and proceed to kick some more butt. However, I think that a major balancing factor of the class is the draw of the White Raven discipline and its capacity to seriously boost the other characters while doing relatively little for the Warblabe him or herself. Perhaps a method of balancing the class a bit would be to rule that strikes from each discipline can only be executed with one of that discipline's favored weapons. That would make the optimal (IMO) combination of Major Diamond Mind/Major Iron Heart/Minor White Raven a bit more difficult to pull off, although the Quick Draw feat could pretty much put things right back where they started.

In practice, I have found my gut reaction to hold true with the BoNS. I've had a couple of PC Warblades--one in an Eberron campaign with 2 other PCs and one in a gestalt solo campaign combined with Warmage--and even at low levels, they seem to be significantly more powerful than characters of other classes. However, I generally consider this to be a boon IMC because it tends to draw players away from the cookie-cutters and gets them to start making tentacled paper dolls. I have no problem with scaling relative power/challenge levels on the fly to balance a campaign, and I generally enjoy powerful, high-fantasy campaigns more than the alternative.

Is it overpowered? IME, in some ways, absolutely. Is this a problem? That depends on the playgroup. Personally, I don't see a real problem with the power levels of either the Crusader or the Swordsage, and although the Warblade is awfully powerful, I just find it too darned cool to disallow completely.

 

[Deekin]

At first glance, it seems overpowered (especially the Warblade and Bloodstorm Blade). Then again, so did the EPH to a lot of people--a sentiment from which I personally have yet to be dissuaded. Number of available spells/powers per day aside, the sheer amount of damage a Psion, Metamind, Psychic Warrior, or Warmind (especially high-level Kineticist/Metaminds and Psy War 1 [for Knowledge Psionics]/Ftr 4/Warmind 10's) can deal in a single round compared to characters of other classes at their levels is absurd, IMO.
.

Just to point out, the Metamind is the worst PrC that has ever been published, ever will be published, and so on. You loose out on 5 levels of Manifesting, limiting you to 8th level powers, limiting your meta cap. In terms of PP lost, you loose more from taking the metamind class that you could possably get back, even with free manifesting and the 10 round of inf power points per day. If you think the metamind is overpowered, you are probably reading the rules wrong.

And as for damage per round, a Sorc using 2 non-core books can use up all his spells in a single round. Using core rules, A wizard can do more damage per round.

This has all been covered in the Myth: The XPH is overpowered Thread over on the WotC boards.

 

[Nail]

Let's not bog this thread down with psionics, 'K?

 

[Nail]

I do not own Book of Nine Swords, but one of my players does want to play a Master of Nine PrC (whatever that is) after multiclassing:

Warblade 4/Fighter 2/Monk 2/Swordsage 2

Hah!

You already know there's a problem when there's that much multiclassing.

Don't let this guy put the "known" list into a common pool between the WB and SS. I'm pretty sure he has to keep them separate.

However, two of the abilities (maneuvers, whatever they are called) that he wants to take are:

White Raven Tactics
Iron Heart Surge

How often per combat can these be used?

White Raven Tactics:
First: Be sure he's got the prereqs for this - one other White Raven Maneuver. It's probably best if he shows you a level-by-level break down of what his PC takes and when he takes it. Building WBs are trick-sey...yessss they are, my preciousssss.....

Second: This manuever can really be used only once per ally...but if you do it right, you can get double actions out of your allies every other round. Remember that you can delay to any initiative count you like, so you can use this, then next round delay and recharge, then use this on the same subject. Etc. It's quite nasty: It allows you to give a ally effectively 2 rounds of actions every time you use it.

Third: Even so, you'll only be able to see this once every other round. So given a 5 round combat, that's three times.


Iron Heart Surge
First: Again, don't forget the prereqs.

Second: It does take a Standard Action. It might be the case that the condition he's in doesn't allow an action at all -- so he can't use the 'Surge. Also things like charm and dominate wouldn't allow a surge either, as the charmed person wouldn't want to do it. Etc. I'm thinking the list of useful times this would work would be limited.....although I could be wrong.

Third: What you should really be complaining about is the Moment of Perfect Mind, a Diamond Mind 1st level power. It's nuts.

 

[Faerl'Elghinn]

And as for damage per round, a Sorc using 2 non-core books can use up all his spells in a single round. Using core rules, A wizard can do more damage per round.

This has all been covered in the Myth: The XPH is overpowered Thread over on the WotC boards.

While a psion can easily outdamage, on average, a wizard in a single combat due to the way powers are manifested / augmented, the depletion of that psion's power points is so rapid that, in a typical game, the next encounter or the encounter after that, he will be completely drained of power points and useless.

My comparison was based on points of damage in a single round without respect to how often such a feat can be accomplished. How is it that a 15th-level sorcerer, wizard, or any other class can match or beat a Practiced Manifester Psion 5/Metamind 10's (ML 14) freely manifested, Overchanneled (ML 16) 21d6+21 fire or cold energy current, maximized to 143 points of damage per round for 16 rounds, with a save DC of 21 + Int in one round? At 15th level, a Sudden Maximized, Sudden Empowered delayed blast fireball or horrid wilting only deals 135 points of damage. Granted, either one would damage far more targets, but I'd still like to see the method which would make your argument true.

I really wasn't trying to argue the power level of the EPH/XPH, but rather to provide a relevant comparison in terms of first impressions. Also, I have generally found (the hard way) that it is simply proper messageboard etiquette, irrespective of location on the web, to afford others a bit more respect when providing one's opinion, such as through the inclusion of the acronym "IMO" (in my opinion) which, IMHO, your argument certainly was. In any case, I apologize for provoking your ire, although I did express my analysis as a matter of opinion, with which you are certainly free to disagree.

 

[KarinsDad]

Iron Heart Surge
First: Again, don't forget the prereqs.

Second: It does take a Standard Action. It might be the case that the condition he's in doesn't allow an action at all -- so he can't use the 'Surge. Also things like charm and dominate wouldn't allow a surge either, as the charmed person wouldn't want to do it. Etc. I'm thinking the list of useful times this would work would be limited.....although I could be wrong.

Yes, I pointed this out to him, but I do not have the book.

According to him, it is not just conditions. It is spells, effects, and conditions.

Also, he is the DM in our current 20th level campaign and he is having NPCs use these abilities right and left (i.e. more than once per combat, practically every round) to auto-dispel spells. Solid Fog spell, no problem. One NPC auto-dispels it, the other NPCs come out and attack.

I suspect he just has not carefully read the book. I cannot imagine WotC wrote something that allows some of the things he is doing.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

Yes, I pointed this out to him, but I do not have the book.

Also, he is the DM in our current 20th level campaign and he is having NPCs use these abilities right and left (i.e. more than once per combat, practically every round) to auto-dispel spells. Solid Fog spell, no problem. One NPC auto-dispels it, the other NPCs come out and attack.

Heh. "...select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately."

It's an extremely liberal reading of the word "affecting". That Wall of Iron is affecting my ability to kill the wizard! Pah.

 

[Seeten]

White Raven Tactics is pretty crazy. Its up there with spells like Fireball, Magic Missile, and the like as "The very best of their ilk, bordering on broken" and in its case, it is probably closer to Wraithstrike than Magic Missile.

Iron heart surge cant remove conditions that are mental, as it requires an action to end. If you cant take an action, you cant remove it. Also, I wouldnt allow it to "dispel" spells, only conditions like nauseated, shaken, confused(if he gets the "act normally for one turn" result" etc, and spells that affect you, and only you, like hold person, or whatnot. I wouldnt allow solid fog, or web, or anything similar to be "dispelled".