Book of Vile Darkness

[Hakkenshi]

Yeah, a lot of you don't give a rats a33 what the other people of the world think. This attitude, of course, exacerbates the problem and perpetuates the 'sociopath nerd' stereotype, but the real point is that the world doesn't work like that anymore. You can't depend on people just forgetting the thing exists like you could before the advent of the internet. Fact is, with society as 'hooked in' as it is, you can bet that a media frenzy will descend on the game as soon as some depressed teen kills some classmates and they find the BoVD in his room. Then Hasbro will drop it and you can kiss D&D goodbye, because it hasn't become mainstream enough to survive such attacks, unlike computer games. And why hasn't it? Because some of you don't want it to be.

No, not caring what the world is a healthy attitude. If we cared what the world thinks, we couldn't be role-playing in the first place. And people WILL forget the thing exists, just as people have already forgotten last September enough for something like Afghanistan d20 to come out. It would never have happened without the events of September 11th, but so far the outcry has been non-existent (and I for one would welcome it!).

As for Hasbro, I couldn't care less. Even WotC failing at this point couldn't stop the hobby. Are gamers really going to stop playing? I don't think so. Who buys these products? Not parents. When I was 12, I bought all my books myself, and everyone I know who games has done the same. The Internet is PRECISELY the thing that will allow a hobby of this kind to endure far beyond the public reaction to it.

As for the sociopath nerd stereotype, that's perpetuated mainly by stubborn lack of hygiene in some gamers who would be weirdos even if they didn't game. D&D just happens to cater to the reclusive nature of many of them. None of my friends who game are these "typical" gamers (though I know some who are). These people are unpleasant even outside of D&D and gaming in general. And protesting that something sucks before having read the first page is one of their favourite pastimes, from what I've gathered in my conversations with them.

Not caring what everyone thinks is what keeps the hobby going.

 

[Nathanael]

While I would normally agree with you completely, Furn, I feel that the nature of the book, the silence from WOTC about it, and the few reports given out about the thing are bad news. The things it purports to address in a 'frank and mature' manner alone are enough to turn my stomach.

It's not about fixing the problem after the book is out. As I've pointed out, bad publicity, which spreads like wildfire in the modern day, can sink a product without time for explanation. I feel that the damage done upon this things release will be hard to repair and set the whole hobby back.

The other thing I find wrong about the book is the reasoning behind why it needs to be made in the first place. I personally see it as a way for WOTC to stir up contraversy and stimulate the flagging sales of the core books (due to almost every gamer owning them) by getting attention in the media to showcase the book to non-gamers. You don't need rules for these things. As my first post suggested, these should be story effects, not mechanical effects and they should be seen from a more human viewpoint, not the viewpoint of how to do them. Even the fantasy writers everyone keeps bringing up don't rely on such graphic imagery to get the point across. Tolkien didn't. He used evil as a forbodeing presence without telling us what would happen in detail if sauron wins. And he's considered the greatest fantasy authour of the 20th century...

 

[Psion]

No, not caring what the world is a healthy attitude.

BS. Sociopathy is not a healthy attitude.

If we cared what the world thinks, we couldn't be role-playing in the first place.

Blatant bifurcation. You don't have to (indeed, can't) adhere to all the expectations every group or individual lays on you. But that doesn't mean that you can't come to an peaceful relationship with the world around you and try to make it a better place for yourself, your fellow man, and would be gamers who would know the joys you have known without having unnecessary disdain cast upon them.

 

[Nathanael]

By the way, Thanks Dr. Midnight! That's the greatest compliment you can give a writer!

And, again, Psion hits one out of the park.

I want more 'normal' people playing D&D. This kind of publicity only ensures that the vast majority of people you have to play with are going to fit the stereotype.

 

[drowdude]

"Bad is good baby!!! Down with government!!!"

 

[Furn_Darkside]

It's not about fixing the problem after the book is out. As I've pointed out, bad publicity, which spreads like wildfire in the modern day, can sink a product without time for explanation. I feel that the damage done upon this things release will be hard to repair and set the whole hobby back.

I apologize if I have missed for what I am about to ask in a previous post, but what do you want to do about it as of right now?

FD

 

[Desdichado]

The other thing I find wrong about the book is the reasoning behind why it needs to be made in the first place. I personally see it as a way for WOTC to stir up contraversy and stimulate the flagging sales of the core books (due to almost every gamer owning them) by getting attention in the media to showcase the book to non-gamers. You don't need rules for these things. As my first post suggested, these should be story effects, not mechanical effects and they should be seen from a more human viewpoint, not the viewpoint of how to do them. Even the fantasy writers everyone keeps bringing up don't rely on such graphic imagery to get the point across. Tolkien didn't. He used evil as a forbodeing presence without telling us what would happen in detail if sauron wins. And he's considered the greatest fantasy authour of the 20th century...

Two (or so) quick points. First, your assumption is that this book is being made to get a media knee-jerk reaction to get more buyers to plop down their dollars. Wha..?!?

I don't believe a word of that. Not only is that strategy absurd in the extreme, there's no indication other than your borderline "conspiracy theory" opinion that it is so. This book is getting no press outside of the hobby, and I'd be very surprised if it ever does.

Secondly, your worry about graphic violence is also a bit outdated. Although I tend to agree with you on the unnecessary and gratuitous use of graphic violence, the fact of the matter is, society, to a large extent, no longer does. Mainstream entertainment features stuff that's much worse than any likely content in this book, and for the most part, nobody much raises an eyebrow at it these days.

Not trying to say I'm in favor of such an attitude, but I do believe it's silly to not recognize what our society has become and what it now accepts.

 

[barsoomcore]

Even the fantasy writers everyone keeps bringing up don't rely on such graphic imagery to get the point across. Tolkien didn't. He used evil as a forbodeing presence without telling us what would happen in detail if sauron wins. And he's considered the greatest fantasy authour of the 20th century...

I'm not sure I agree with you, Nathaneal.

I think you could argue that Tolkien is in fact quite specific about what Sauron's rule will entail -- the characters, motivations and lifestyles of the orcs are described in some detail, as is the landscape of Mordor. And what Saruman does to the Shire at the end is very much a "hobbit's-eye" view of what Sauron's rule might be like.

In Tolkien's view, of course, cutting down a tree is just about the worst thing anyone can do. The Silmarillion makes that pretty clear. Heh.

And there are a number of great fantasy writers that have been even more specific about evil and its behaviour -- Michael Moorcock includes rapes, tortures and assorted sado-masochism in pretty much all his books, Glenn Cook's Black Company books make no bones about how awful human beings can truly be to each other -- I could go on.

None of this has anything to do with the BoVD, of course. I think myself you're being a little melodramatic, and certainly jumping the gun. I think, too, in an age where movies can routinely depict staggering levels of violence, misogyny (XXX, anyone?) and foulness, this book won't be a blip on anyone's radar. This is NOT the early 80's, where Friday the 13th was considered subversive and surely a sign of civilization's end. Friday the 13th seems quaint these days.

Besides, is there any evidence to suggest that the anti-D&D fad of the 80's actually impacted book sales to any degree? TSR was certainly poorly managed enough to go under without any help whatsoever.

So all this fuss and bother seems to me like people getting excited about something because it's fun to get excited about things. One book is not going to make or break our hobby.

 

[Nathanael]

Furn asked what I to do? All I can do: voice my opinion and hope that others will do the same.

If an exec of WOTC is reading any of this, I hope that it will at least make him think twice about the release of this product under the D&D label and perhaps convince his bosses of the same. At the very least, I would like them to release it under some other label, in the same fashion White Wolf did with Black Dog, so the connection isn't so defined.

In the end, though, I'm trying to nurture the hobby I love and protect it whilst introducing a more mainstream type of person into the wonderful world of heroic fantasy via the great grandaddy of RPGs.

 

[kenjib]

While I would normally agree with you completely, Furn, I feel that the nature of the book, the silence from WOTC about it, and the few reports given out about the thing are bad news. The things it purports to address in a 'frank and mature' manner alone are enough to turn my stomach.

...and because it turns *your* stomach, it shouldn't be available to *me*? Come on now, it doesn't sound like there's anything in this book that you can't get from reading Robert Howard or H.P. Lovecraft.

It's not about fixing the problem after the book is out. As I've pointed out, bad publicity, which spreads like wildfire in the modern day, can sink a product without time for explanation. I feel that the damage done upon this things release will be hard to repair and set the whole hobby back.

D&D just isn't the big deal now that it was in the 80's when it came under fire before. With all of the stuff parents need to watch out for today, D&D just doesn't top the list anymore. I think that the demographic has also shifted to an older audience. This is all rampant speculation on both sides though.

The other thing I find wrong about the book is the reasoning behind why it needs to be made in the first place. I personally see it as a way for WOTC to stir up contraversy and stimulate the flagging sales of the core books (due to almost every gamer owning them) by getting attention in the media to showcase the book to non-gamers. You don't need rules for these things. As my first post suggested, these should be story effects, not mechanical effects and they should be seen from a more human viewpoint, not the viewpoint of how to do them. Even the fantasy writers everyone keeps bringing up don't rely on such graphic imagery to get the point across. Tolkien didn't. He used evil as a forbodeing presence without telling us what would happen in detail if sauron wins. And he's considered the greatest fantasy authour of the 20th century...

Sauron created the one ring to enslave the owners of the other rings. The nine humans were turned into foul, demonic, wraiths through this corruption (PRC and/or template and rules on resisting the will of evil corruption). Gollum turned into a twisted and evil being for his covetousness over the one ring (new cursed magic item and a template). This all sounds like great material for the Book of Vile Darkness. Slavery, the corruption of the soul through lust for power and greed. How do you handle a magic item that corrupts the souls of those who use it, enslaving them to a dark lord? That tempts them to use it's power so that it can corrupt their souls and enslave them to it's will?

Why gee...it sounds like the Book of Vile Darkness might even have some rules that touch on these subjects! It's a perfect act of villainly for our bold and valiant heroes to rail against -- to paint the villain as truly vile, unrepentant, and thoroughly evil so that he can be soundly thrashed by the forces of good. The book of vile darkness might just be a great supplement for d20 roleplaying in Middle Earth.

These aren't purely story effects. There are things in there that could be well served with mechanics. You can make up the rules yourself, wing it and adjudicate it ad hoc, or use some solid, playtested, rules written by the guy considered perhaps the top name in d20 writing at the moment.